My salute to Mr. Sanjay who expressed his true willingness how a professional should act. 

If  only 20% of all professional members practice what he said; I hope  there would not only a remarkable value addition in training but  the practice would be a pleasure.

Ultimately it will incrase efficiency of the employers' office.   They have to train students for one or two times; thenafter they can enjoy fruits thereof also.

Now-a-days; a professional spends most of his time in office. Offices have become STRESS HOUSES. If we have kind behaviour towards students then definitely not only they will grow but the practice will also grow.

Students should be cared very well because they are innocent. Initially they don't know how to do practical work.  It is my experience that some students can't have grip of practical work till first 6 months. At that time they should be encouraged for study at home rather than imposing more work on them. 

Students should also start reading some subjects immediately they join CA training : ACCOUNTANCY, AUDITING, INCOME-TAX ETC (according to the work area of the employer).  If they get expertise in the subjects which are the practice area of the employer; they can have a very bright career whatever is the stage of  working at employers' office.

Hence students should immediately start to think  about practical exposure of theory subjects with the help of  MATCHING PRINCIPLE explained supra.

Originally posted by : hariharan
	dear sir, i totally agree with u the principle reason behind this is that there are only a few cwa's as compared to ca's + ca's in general have this feeling that they are superior to other professionals like cs,cwa,mba etc. Also our institute is hell bent on minting money.it has got nothing to do as to whether it's students are really imparted practical training or made to do jobs like cleanng the office,purchasing brooms,paying bills of the boss,etc also very heartening to see that a few ca's like u do take up the issue.but unfortunately u belong to a very small section of ca's who really care for the students the others r not bothered. the discussion must go on sir and thank u very much for brining it up regards

You r Absolutely right frend..

First of all I would like to Thank You Sir for bringing this topic to light. I am a CWA student n going to give my Inter in this coming June. I respect all the three professions a lot. Earlier I was also a student of CA but left it just because of this articleship related problem (though now I feel that it was a big mistake). But it's true that many articles face lot of hardships during their articleship period. But again that will bring out the better in you. That's my personal opinion coz I left articleship and CA but my friends who continued their articleship n who are now in the Final stage are way far ahead than me. All this pain is worth taking when you see the fruits that you are goig to get in the future.

Sure there are certain issues which need to be rectified like the restriction on transfer because as pointed in earlier posts an article could not get every kind of exposure in a single firm. And by restricting transfers the Institute is restricting the opportunity to learn different kind of work. What if a Firm deals only in Auditing then how the article will learn Taxation or Finance or Indirect Taxes? If he wishes to change the firm to learn other aspects what will he do? As per my knowledge this restriction was mainly imposed to get rid of DUMMY which is indeed a curse on CA course but is it really going to help as it is supposed to? Instead of trying to make the rules strict for students why don't the Institute try to rectify the faults of it's members. If a student takes dummy it will be considered his fault but what about the CA providing dummy? Dummy is there because Institute's members are there to provide it. If all the members decide that they will not provide dummy then there is no possiblity for any student of taking it.

Second issue is flexibility in training. The Institute must allow students to take Industrial training also. Though it is allowed during last 12 months but it should be made for whole of the 3 years. The Institute must leave this to the student whether he wish to join some Practising CA or wishes to go for Industrial training. The flexibilty will make it better.

Third issue is restriction on giving exams. I have observed that all the Accounting bodies around the world have training criteria for giving membership. LIke ICAEW, CIMA, ACCA, AICPA, CICA, ICAA etc. n also our ICWAI and ICSI but they don't restrict exams on the basis of training. You can complete your exams before even starting training the only condition is that you must have certain years of training to get membership. But ICAI allows to sit in the finals only after completing 3 years of articleship which is inappropriate in my opinion. Exams are different thing and training is different. They must not restrict exams because of training.

Recognition of work experience to exempt training - I also feel that ICAI should consider prior work experience and provide some exemption from training. Many people decide at later stage to persue the course but when they see 3 years articleship and that too under only practising CA stop them to persue the course. I am not saying that whole of the 3 years should be exempted but atleast 2 out of 3 years can be exempted. ICAI can n must list out the fields of work for which exemption will be granted. So the people at the age of 30 or 35 or even 45 can think of doing it who have work experience without thinking so much of the 3 years long articleship period.

In my opinion Articleship training should be

1) As All  students of ICAI reads one syllabus and writes same exam,  equal level of Articleship training  should be insisted. If theoretical training is equal to all why not practical training...? I know this is practically tough But If they (BOS) wish they  can do it.

2) Articleship training of every student should be carefully evaluated by ICAI on yearly basis  with respect types of work done by him in his office and nature of work may be available to him in future  under same Principal . For this they may refer his dairy and his principals empanelments.

3) Now if any student is dont have opportunity to learn any other type of work which is not available in his office or he is not learned so far he should encouraged to take secondmanent or transfer to other office so that he/she could learn more, In most of the times Pricipal's interest is served, so  Articles interests  also should be recognised If Articleship Training is aslo  equal importaint as much as theoritical training.

I know by  Blaming some We  will not make change or improves the system. We should think and act in unity for betterment of Future Chartered Accountant Profession

And another thing I wish to mention is regarding the Chairman Sir of our Raipur Chapter of ICWAI. He is a fellow member of ICWAI and M.Com. I got an opportunity to work under him for 1 month to learn making Cost records. He told us about how he has done his training. He worked in a CA firm for 5 years because during his time there were not much CWA firms and training was also not mandatory. And after that he served different companies. He says that he was fortunate because he worked in CA firm during his study period because not only was he able to get the exposure to all the things in real but it also helped him to study better. And it also helped him to become a better Cost and Management Accountant. Because you can't prepare cost records or conduct cost audit if you don't understand the Annual Report and Tax Audit Report which is prepared by CAs only. But if you work in CA firm you also get a chance to learn all these things. He says first you are an Accountant than Chartered or Cost. So try to learn all the apsects related to Accounting, Direct Taxation, Auditing, Indirect Taxation, Corporate Laws, Cost Accounting, Cost Audit.

And with his guidance I have also decided to first persue training from CA firm as an employee and then from CWA firm. Because this will provide me exposure to all the different kind of work.

This itself shows how important training is for both the courses. And regarding the topic I will go with the CWA training because it provide the student with all the flexibilty that CA training lacks.

ITS A GOOD DISCUSSION.

CA SURENDRA KUMAR RAKHECHA,  SIR IS VERY FREQUENT FOR STARTING THESE TYPE OF ISSUE'S.

AS I DON'T HAVE IDEA OF ICWA TRAINING...BUT READEN ALL ABOVE COMMENTS AND FOUND WORTHY.

my office is in a building in which there is a number of practising CA/CWA/Adocate and i ofhen saw that a article is carring tea/ fruit etc from vendor. after seeing this , i feel they are cheted by their principal, to whom they say SIR and come to them to learn. normally a student is not so aware about level or amount of work firm has when he/she joined articship in that perticular firm. so if one had make mistake, he has a punishment for 3 years. is it fair?

as far as dummy is concerned, sometime it happened because of friends/relatives refrences but it is very said to say that some members see it as a earning oppurtunite. dummy rate in my city vary from Rs 2000-2500 per month.

it is where traning is losing its oblective.

THANKS ARIF FOR SHARING THE TRUTH.
 

Originally posted by : CMA Arif
	my office is in a building in which there is a number of practising CA/CWA/Adocate and i ofhen saw that a article is carring tea/ fruit etc from vendor. after seeing this , i feel they are cheted by their principal, to whom they say SIR and come to them to learn. normally a student is not so aware about level or amount of work firm has when he/she joined articship in that perticular firm. so if one had make mistake, he has a punishment for 3 years. is it fair? as far as dummy is concerned, sometime it happened because of friends/relatives refrences but it is very said to say that some members see it as a earning oppurtunite. dummy rate in my city vary from Rs 2000-2500 per month. it is where traning is losing its oblective.

completely disagree. you see only one side of coin. my dear friend please see those firms in which articles perform very well, thay gain knowledge in true way. why are you asking about Dummy article ship, please think posative and try to see good activites. why  you are not mentation about majority of articles who doing article ship in right way.

CA Article ship and CWA Article ship is two different ascepts. i dont think that CWA tranning is batter then CA tranning. Their is no way to compare thease two.

dear Ravi,

i asked about dummy articleship because some members discussed it through this forum. and i am not saying that every body providing dummy .  please read, i said" it is very said to say that some members". truth must be know. i think most of member known that dummy is given on monthly payment too. first we must know deases so that we can treat it.

i just wanted to say because of these members traning is losing its objectives, this does not mean that traning is wothless or all members are same.

secondly, i am not comparing traning of CA/CWA or saying that CWA traning is better, topic is to discuss positives and negatives of traning and same is applicable to both CA/CWA traning.

problem is restiction on transfer, if principle has not enough work, punisment is given to his article who was just 12 std passed student at the time of inroling for articleship.

objectives of CA traning is no doubts good that is why CWA too implemented article traning.

Dear Arif ji ,

                    in every profession some bad thinks are their but we can avoide that for batterment of profession.

Thanks caclubindia that due to open forum we can discuss issues like dummy articleship which flourished in small cities where  many  members don't have  enough work but still can register 10 students.

These members get encashment from students (Leave Encashment or Live Encashment ?). It shows that REPORTING REQUIREMENT OF ARTICLE TRAINING has major  lapses.

There is no doubt that if CA articleship training is fine enough which ensures bright career.

But I ask how many students get fine training looking to the huge number of students? 

Almost 70% of  CA Firms run in proprietor form.  Others are also in the format of CAPACITY BUILDING FOR THE SAKE OF BANK AUDITS ETC only. 

Commencement of articled training on  CPT base was one of the worst experience for CA students. Because students could not fill the gap of School Education with Professional Education.

Hence students were not matured for CA training. By the time they matured; the training was almost completed.

The students faced four fold tension : COACHING, TRAINING, STUDY AT HOME AND GRADUATION course run simultaneously.

The major portion of time was consumed in training which was required at any cost. The limit of articled clerks was increased by the institute per  member. This led to huge number of dummy articleship. 

Thank god that now IPCC students would be in one of the best position because they will not have that much  tension of study with training.  Since working knowledge of subjects would also be there hence they will focus more on training only. 

Looking to these facts; they would be in a better position than before. 

My humble request to the forum members that we should carry the discussion in a very decent manner. 

If we can find some solutions then not only it would benefit to the students but it would be of great help to practising CA Firms only.  If students can finalize some audits at their own; then surely the quality of audit will also improve. 

It is really very unfortunate that despite good training in CWA curriculum still many students feel that they are lacking in comparison to CA training.

In CWA curriculum; you will also find that they have included IFRS and AS in their syllabus.

In addition to that; they already have 10 Cost Accounting Standards. Right now they think that these are not so important because who cares for Cost Audit Report ? But don't worry the same story was there in case of Statutory Audit Report previously - it was of copy paste nature run from year to year. Very few members focued on Accounting Standards. Due to recent amendments only; now each and every member is required to report on each Accounting Standard. 

The CWA members will be known as Management Accountants very soon. 

Their examination  pattern is also not so easy.  They have to appear for two papers in day one - one in morning and second in evening session. Whereas; the CA institute has relaxed this norm. Previously it took papers without any break. Now one day break is given.  

More views and suggestions are most welcome. 

i am agree Ravi ji. objective of this discussion is to find out bad things and take nessery steps to correct it.

surender sir, i agree, exam pattern (monning - evening paper) was indeed injustic to student.  that is why you find that numbers of students appread for single group exam rather than both group. i cleread my exam in same pattern and know how diffcult it was.

but thanks god! now they rectified it. in new sllybus 2008, only single paper held in a day. but their is no break during exam days. hope they follow ICAI step sooner then later.

Thank Dear Ravi and Arif.

(humour)

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