Thanks for critical comments. 

I wish to share my views : 

1. Every institute has its own merits and demerits. 

2. Both institutes are premier institutes in Commerce Stream. 

3. Regarding misconception of minimal scope; I would like to emphasis on the fact that 70% of syllabus of ICAI, ICWA and ICSI is common.

The difference is of depth. A depth in the subject can be had when one has interest in the subjects. 

The passing percentage is also 50% in aggregate and 40% in individual subjects. Hence we can't say that a particular stream is better in all respect where such a liberal approach is there to qualify an exam. 

So whatever areas of profession one can have with the qualification of a CA, except Statutory Audits; all those areas are open to CWA and CS members as well. For more clarity see the status of a CA student in point number 4 mentioned below.

4. Despite introduction of so many subjects in CA training; there is NO GUARANTEE THAT STUDENT WILL GET EXPERT KNOWLEDGE AND APPLICATION OF ALL THE SUBJECTS.  

A student who is pursuing training at a CA firm; whatever is the status of the firm - either Big, Medium or Small; he won't be able to have practical exposure of all. Please see again point no. 3 above.

5. CWA members are also allowed to do audits. So they also have exposure in audits. Many of them are also engaged in taxation, excise and custom, Cost control and cost reduction (Cost Management), ISO 9001-2000 audits etc.

The percentage of traditional practice is still more when we compare it with CA. But  most of the CA firms are still being run as proprietory concern and almost all of them are engaged in traditional areas of  practice.  

A single area is sufficient to give professional serivce efficiently.   

6. CA firms hardly run audits for more than 3 months. So rest of areas are altogether different than their core area of practice. Ultimately a student don't become expert in all the areas. Even Big 4 CA firms' students face difficulties in Taxation because they are master in Audits only. 

7. Due to rigidity in CA training; some CA students take dummy articleship with the help of their relatives and friends. It questions the INDEPENDENCE OF A CA.  Practically we can see to what extent they are really indepedent. 

8. A CA firm is allowed to take 10 articled clerksto train  where they don't have even 10 Lacs of gross receipts specially in small cities. Now can imagine the quality of CA training particularly in these cases.

The discussion is towards betterment of the things rather than to blame someone.  The issue raised is general where most of CA students are involved.  When issue is of general nature then surely it should be discussed and we should find out the solutions thereof if something wrong is happening.

(Well developed econonic countries are towards failure which we see now-a-days. It means if we think we are right all the time; then surely one day we will find ourself also in trouble. Why so many banks failed in US despite they claimed as one of the best managed companies?). 

So if we don't rectify our mistakes; then one day again we will find that there are very few students in CA profession which happened during the period  1981-1984 and 1990-2000 (as per my experience, right now I cannot provide data). 

Dear Adityajn, 

I respect your comments.

I never wish to degrade any institution. I am also a member of the esteemed Institute. There may be some  flaws in the system but system may be made strong with some remedial action. (Honestly tell me whether you are satisifed with CPE Hours system lodged on the members?)

To make the issue hot and purposeful; sometimes we have to present in such ways e.g. Practice vs. Job. 

The discussion is towards Training System which is prevalent right now. Till transfers were allowed; no such hues and cry was there. 

The authorities should take care of the whole society in public interest. Law is made for public interest. I also agree that due to certain reasons the authorities might have took such decision but such circumstances may not be suitable to all because many students have been badly affected due to this restriction of transfer.

Hopefully, the transfers would be allowed very soon. 

(It is very strange that when transfers were allowed very few students utilized it. When it was banned, all took it as if  they are behind the bars !)

Dear Aditya Ji,

I'd like to appreciate you for a very humble responce (your II reply) to Sanjay Ji. This is the true spirit of discussion. However i'd request you to please don't take it as an advertisment campaign. I also agree to your observations regarding lesser number of CWA members.

However we can improve the things through discussions coz with thses kind of discussions we can make up our mind towards the betterment of the professions.

Remember one can bring the change only when he himself knows all the negative and positive aspects of a mvement.

Regards

Articleship experience is not fruitful to everybody as some gets in Big Firms and some gets in very Small Firms where they are treated like a peon. The Institute must look in this matter very strictly and must ensure that All Firms are adhering to the objective of Articleship.

One more thing is that ICAI must compulsory the "Industrial Training" in the last year of articleship because of this atleast those student who get Articleship Training in Small Firms will get good industry exposure. There are firms who even do not give transfer in the last year of Articleship for "Industrial Training". And looking at the current scenario we can say that atleast 80% students who qualify opt for Industry so it will be very helpful to them.

Dear Sir,

I believe , period of article ship or practical training is basically to know not what we have to do after becoming CA or ICWA, but it is all about  what we should do  to become CA or ICWA.

Many Student completely forget  that,period of article ship  gives us a three complete year  to focus complete on our study  rather than on working.we all know that  it is quite struggle for any student to  become CA, CWA,  or CS.Students are given many privelage  and   they hardly have any accountability  for what ever they  are doing at firm." IT IS PRACTICAL TRAINING"  here we get  enough time to experiment our selves.

And i believe that no work is low or high, if some one is asked file a return or  to sweep the office .All these core activities done at this period will make us more humble , when we climb the ladder of suceess in future.

SO STUDENT should not blame such training at all.

When It Comes to ICWAI    " MOST OF STUDENT ARE ALREADY EMPLOYED, and we hardly find any  TIME for studies", no leave for exam, even if  taken not more than 10 days &  such is not the case with CA's.  

wHAT SAY??

Regards

Vineet Gopalakrishnan

I totally agree with Mr Vineet.

Every work which is being given to us during our articleship is a part of training. It teaches us that there may be times where hardship is there and sometimes when we would be in luxuries. So, it is better not to blame the pattern of CA training. No body knows what is there for them in the future so with this training CA students got a strong base for their future as they are used to of tough conditions. So whether they r from Big firms or small firms it doesnot make any differrence.

It is also true that most of the students in CWA are either qualifieds with another degree and/or are placed somewhere in the corporates so they do not hav sufficient time for studies. And I think considering these facts it is being facilitated by the ICWAI that if a person is working in a Company he can submit a certificate in lieu of Practical Training thereby getting exemption.

Regards,

Aditya

Please read the contents of the FORUM carefully. 

The purpose of the forum is not to blame training; but the way it is being rendered in general to  common students by majority of ca firms. 

Each qualified CA knows very well the importance of training. Very few CA students agree that training should be there. Many say that 3 years training is horrible - it must be curtailed to 2 years and so on.... 

Let students also comment. 

Totally agrees with you sir

As CWA students going to Industry training is because of

1. Practicing CWA -scope will be less compare to Industry experience

2. Practicing CWA Members are very less than expected level

3. Cost accounts are not compulsory for all type of Industries as like financial accounts

Previously the CWA training is compulsory for getting Membership. Now only in 2008 syllabus the training is made compulsory for students and also the experience in the specified Industry also accepted as Practical training. So most  of the students are like to go the Industrial based training only because of the above 3 reasons and also  good package of Salary being offered for a candidate finished practical training in industry so number of students taking training with CWA members are very less. So the complaints will also naturally less or nil. But CA training not like that it is compulsory and for attending exams also the term based on the article ship period and because of high scope and number of students also very high and the related complaints also high.

objeactive of traning in both institute was to give practicle knoweledge to its student and it still same. but because of some member, students beleave that it is an injustice which is implemented on them.  i too agree with some extend that except to few member, most thinks that articles are cheep labour (who can do anything) provided to them by institute.

One of the reasons for CWA training appears to be better is Flexibility. ICAI says if you do not complete "xxx" years of article training you are not eligible to appear for final. Whereas ICWAI has no such restrictions. Secondly ICWAI allows it's student to opt for training in ANY industry. There are CA's who are working in field other than tax or audit so for those CA’s training of 3 years was almost a waste. Even if someone works in KPO ICWAI accepts it.  The point which I am stating here is chartered accountants know that due to policy of ICAI there will be constant supple of Human Resource at a cheaper rate so basically they don’t care at all about articled students. It does not make any difference to their life whether a student to which they are supposed to train is learning something or not.

Another point is ICAI is not allowing any transfer. This proves that institute doesn’t care about students and further more to fool students they have started this puppet association of students here we call WICASA having logo “grow” with us. We as students don’t have any platform at all to share our problems with institute. I was expecting that WICASA thing will at least talk with institute and make them agree that at least 1 transfer in span of 3 years is reasonable.

Please go and check annual report of institute you will find that almost 75% of income comes from student but all this money is spent on chartered. So in following ways ICAI helps it dear members:-

1. Provide human resource at very negligent cost.

2. Take hell a lot of money from student and spent it on members.

One more thing name of ICWAI will be soon changed. Once president signs those bills; name of ICWAI will be changed. And cost accountants can use CMA as suffix.

AND even after this discussion I an 1000% sure ICAI will not do anything. There is only one utility of students to ICAI make HELL a LOT of MOney

It is my humble request to all participants to share their views for the betterment of training.

Suggestions are also most welcome.  

We wish to make the discussion purposeful in such a way that we can take certain actions at our level.  

Many times it  happens that in an industry just due to a small suggestion by an employee  to the management;  if management takes action accordingly; a huge benefit is derived.

I request all CA & CWA firms to come forward and enhance the level of training provided to their article. They are in possession of the future of our finance community. They have a social responsibility of providing a brighter career to all the students. Every student joins a firm with a lot of expectation. They expect to learn all the traits and enhance there knowledge & skill level. We all have a responsibility to try our level best to fulfill their expectations, as we all have reached where we are now bcoz of help of our respective firms, seniors, teachers etc. Now it’s our turn to pay back. Please don’t play with the career of a student as they are the future of India. They have a lot of promises to fulfill, lots of responsibility to handle. They go through a lot of adversity during the tenure of their professional education. We have no right to spoil somebody's career.

If all of us fulfill our responsibilities, I have no doubt that India will be no.1 in terms of finance professional, sooner than latter.

If any of my comments has hurt any one,  I sincerely apologize to all.

Regards

Dear Sir,

I just want to say that what ever i know beyond study it means practical that was due to my training which was under CA Firm. I know that each one does not have good experiance in this field.

CA course is old and have lots of member & student also thats why we can express our feeling. you can dicsuss on the topic on which you know some thing.

I didn't done industrial trainning but i know how to work.

It is good that ICWA has also started training which will inhance them.

Regards

CA SURESH AGARWAL