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Icwai demands drop chartered from icai

Page no : 3

Sanket ( ACA, ACMA, CS) (Self-Employed) (72 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

 

Incase CWA are not successful in changing to CMA, they should pursue CCA (Chartered Cost Accountant)

hence it might be called "ICCAI" instead of ICAI and ACCA/FCCA.


(Guest)

Dear DK and Sanket,

Can you blame BCCI for being monopolistic in development of cricket. can you challange RBI for being monopolistic in banking professsion.

Diversity in quality in any profession is fact. All doctors and engneers are not equally competent and inteligent.

it does meen whole medical council  will be punished and another branch of medical professional lie urolgy is made to control over all medical profesion.

Sanket ( ACA, ACMA, CS) (Self-Employed) (72 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

Originally posted by : Raj Kumar Gupta


Dear DK and Sanket,

Can you blame BCCI for being monopolistic in development of cricket. can you challange RBI for being monopolistic in banking professsion.

Diversity in quality in any profession is fact. All doctors and engneers are not equally competent and inteligent.

it does meen whole medical council  will be punished and another branch of medical professional lie urolgy is made to control over all medical profesion.

 

 

WE CAN CALL BCCI MONOPOLISTIC FOR ALLOWING ONLY CRICET TO GROW AND UNDERMINING ATHLETICISM OF OTHER SPORTS SUCH AS FOOTBALL,HOCKEY, RACING,OLYMPYIANS (REMEMBER MILKHA SINGH-ARJUNA AWARD CONTROVERSY).DEMANDING TAX EXEMPTION BENEFITS BY POLITICAL PRESSURE. LALIT MODI WAS CONSIDERED MONOPOLIST.

 



(Guest)

Sanket,

Then you have fight at least next 100 years to change BCCI or to provide another regulatory body for cricket.

Again suffering from inferior compexcity , who has made indian cricket so popular. We indian same why .

ICAI was made poplur by you and me. and you and me both are Indian. This is the facts. and facts prevail.

Sanket ( ACA, ACMA, CS) (Self-Employed) (72 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

RBI CAN BE CALLED MONOPOLISTIC IF DOES NOT ALLOW SEBI  & STOCK EXCHANGES TO DO THEIR RIGHTFUL DUTY.

Sanket ( ACA, ACMA, CS) (Self-Employed) (72 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

Originally posted by : Raj Kumar Gupta


Sanket,

Then you have fight at least next 100 years to change BCCI or to provide another regulatory body for cricket.

Again suffering from inferior compexcity , who has made indian cricket so popular. We indian same why .

ICAI was made poplur by you and me. and you and me both are Indian. This is the facts. and facts prevail.

 

 

INDIAN CRICKET IS POPULAR IN INDIA ONLY, ONLY 12-16 NATIONS GLOBALLY PLAY CRICKET, COMPARE THIS WITH FOOTBALL & BASKETBALL. PLAYERS OF THESE NATION COME TO INDIA AND EARN FROM US AND TAKE BACK MONEY HOME.THE MONEY EARNED FROM US( THE INDIANS) IS CHANNELED THROUGH MAURATIUS AND TRANSEFERRED TO TAX HEAVEN

   WHY SHOULD I BE PROUD OF BCCI?

 

 



(Guest)

Sanket 

Tum toh yar , sach much yug badle chale ho,

Cricket is passion of India , it will be . It dose not matter how many nations plays cricket.

then you promote football along with CWA . The craze of cricket is much is that if any sees you speaking against indian team , they will not spare you yar.

Please accept the facts,. Even laws are framed on the basis of natural facts prevailing in the current days.

Soppose , some peaple like  you dose not supprt IPL , then what , is it goig to be flop? Not yar .

Improvement in BCCI or ICAI or ICWAI is required. that i support you.

 

DK (SERVICE) (116 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

Dear R K Gupta You are right at some point, but it is not rational to compare Doctor and Engineer.If syllabus of ICWA and ICAI will be mapped.I do not think that major difference is there.You are quoting about BCCI, which is exactly in different domain.I will not make much comments, but while going through debates in Rajya sabha ,one honourable member has remarked that People approach to CA for avoiding tax, but i really salute ICAI to come out of the biggest shock of the century for certifying SATYAM ACCOUNTS.Have this happened in another countries , tremor could be felt.I am also qualified with dual degree.But only i would like to say naam bade or darshan chhote.

Sanket ( ACA, ACMA, CS) (Self-Employed) (72 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

FORGET CRICKET

PLEASE COME BACK TO THE POINT.

THE POINT IS BREAD & BUTTER OF CWAs, IF THEY DON'T GET  THEIR DUE RECOGNITION BY INDIAN(S) BY BEING INDIANS , WHAT IS THE POINT OF INFATUATION WITH INDIAN(NON-GOVERNMENT) BCCI OR IPL.

RG - A Helping Hand (Company Secretary) (13867 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

Originally posted by : Sanket

FORGET CRICKET

PLEASE COME BACK TO THE POINT.

THE POINT IS BREAD & BUTTER OF CWAs, IF THEY DON'T GET  THEIR DUE RECOGNITION BY INDIAN(S) BY BEING INDIANS , WHAT IS THE POINT OF INFATUATION WITH INDIAN(NON-GOVERNMENT) BCCI OR IPL.

 

TRY AND UNDERSTAND THESE KIND OF POLITICAL DECISIONS CANNOT DAMAGE THE REPUTATION OF OUR ESTEEMED INSTITUTES.

 

SO CWAs IS NOT GOING TO FACE ANY PROBLEM AS FAR AS THEIR SURVIVAL IS CONCERNED.

 

PEACE !!!


 


(Guest)

Dear Sanket and DK,

All professional are managed on code of ethics at the same line of BCCI MCI or else.Defination of profession clearly includes accounting as well.

Please do not change the basic meaning of defination of a profesion. even our Indian laws  have accepted Accounting at the same level with advocates and medicals and so no.

Arre Yar DK 

you are not aware of  scam of billion dollors in the Auther anderson. The CA firm in US was dissolved . Currenlty , its partners joined E NY. There are many cases in the abraod.

It does not mean all CPA  were punished , and CMA US were allowed to take role of CPA US.

omkar (ACA ACMA( AIR 14) CPA (USA) Dip (IFRS))   (60 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

Instead of fighting over the name , the institute must improve its syllabus, give appropriate training and develop enough competency in the market this is the only way to build a good name  

 

Sanket ( ACA, ACMA, CS) (Self-Employed) (72 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

Originally posted by : Raj Kumar Gupta

Dear Sanket and DK,

All professional are managed on code of ethics at the same line of BCCI MCI or else.Defination of profession clearly includes accounting as well.

Please do not change the basic meaning of defination of a profesion. even our Indian laws  have accepted Accounting at the same level with advocates and medicals and so no.

Arre Yar DK 

you are not aware of  scam of billion dollors in the Auther anderson. The CA firm in US was dissolved . Currenlty , its partners joined E NY. There are many cases in the abraod.

It does not mean all CPA  were punished , and CMA US were allowed to take role of CPA US.

Dear RKG, you seem to be out of sync.

When did the CWAs demanded that they should be given financial audit for reasons of Satyam Scam.

How  will the domain of financial audit of CAs change if CWAs want to call themselves Cost & Management accountants?

Finaly how  will the domain of financial audit of CAs change if "Chartered" word is dropped?

 

Your reaction to the press release (just a press release) is unwarranted. The reaction of ICWAI is acceptable because the amendment bill is already passed in rajya sabha without any rational justification.

you seem to be totally perplexed because you may be lacking in confidence.Both as a member and student this is not a good sign. As richank pointed out  Peace Peace Peace


 

1 Like

DK (SERVICE) (116 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

MP in rajya sabha:These companies sneaked into India under the garb of Management Consulting Firms and took over surrogate C.A. firms for their nefarious games. The Enron collapsed. The Global Trust Bank failed. The Satyam Computers fudged the accounts, and, recently, a mining company belonging to * was found doing illegal mining. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Expunged as ordered by the Chair. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Don’t take the name. (Interruptions) SHRI T.K. RANGARAJAN: All these are audited by the surrogate C.A. firms and are witness to the nefarious games of the foreign management consulting firms. If you lift the veil, you find the names of Price Waterhouse, Arthur Andersen, DH & Sells, and, others. The dominant management consulting firms in the United States are (a) Price Waterhouse, (2) Ernst and Young, (3) KPMG, and, (4) Deloitte Haskins and Sells. We have Tri-murti. We are bringing Char-murti. They are controlling almost the entire management consulting in the United States, and, nobody knows as to who are the real owners of these companies even in the United States. Further, these companies have their controlling offices in tax havens. This shows the standard of their audit. Because these companies cannot do the audit in India directly, they lure a local C.A. firm to be their surrogate and carry on their nefarious activities. In States, i do not think a single institute has been given monopoly for audit.Regarding mapping in subject , i am giving acorrect example.In engineering , one stream is Electrical and Communication and other is Electrical and Electronics and when subject will be mapped then some difference is there , even though companies recruit like E&C/E&E, as purpose is almost same. It is only correct that CA have a stronger lobby and due to this they have dictated the amendment act and handed over to MCA minister for passing, but i am sure this time there will be ruckus in Parliament because this time ICWA institute have given a clarion call to deal this issue.

1 Like

DK (SERVICE) (116 Points)
Replied 16 December 2011

THE CHARTERED ACCOUNTANTS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010. AND THE COST AND WORKS ACCOUNTANTS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010 AND THE COMPANY SECRETARIES (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010. THE MINISTER OF CORPORATE AFFAIRS (SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY): Sir, I beg to move: That the Bill further to amend the Chartered Accountants Act, 1949, be taken into consideration. *Not recorded.Sir, I also move: That the Bill further to amend the Cost and Works Accountants Act, 1959, be taken into consideration. Sir, I also move: That the Bill further to amend the Company Secretaries Act, 1980, be taken into consideration. Sir, all the three Bills, I hope, will be taken up together for consideration. Ultimately, it is only to amend Sub-Section (2) of Section (2) of all the three Acts. These are all professional institutes. In fact, in the year 2008, the Limited Liability Partnership Act, was enacted. So, this is an enabling clause for the entities to get the legal status which will combine the flexibility of a partnership with the benefits of limited liability enjoyed by company. With the services sector in the country growing in a vibrant way and we are creating niche out of it for ourselves, particularly in the services sector, there is a need to provide space with an increasingly significant role in the Indian economy and the high quality of professionals to respond to the global aspirations. (CONTD. BY USY "1U") -NBR-USY/SC/1U/12.35 SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY (CONTD.): This is how all these ideas had been mooted as far back as 2002 when Naresh Chandra Committee gave its report. The Bill is very simple. It is only for the incorporation of this amendment. But, at the same time, this is going to create a magnificent role to be played by all the services under these three professional institutes. I would like the House to appreciate the significant move by providing a greater and rapid space for these three professional institutes. (Ends) The questions were proposed. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (DR. E.M. SUDARSANA NATCHIAPPAN): Motions for consideration of the Chartered Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010; The Cost and Works Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010; and the Company Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 2010, are now open for discussion. Now, I request Shri S.S. Ahluwalia to make his observations. Ǜी एस.एस. ु अहलवािलया (झारखं ड) : उपसभा्यष महोदय, मȅ The Chartered Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010; The Cost and Works Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010; and The Company Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 2010 का समथ्न करने े क िलए खड़ा हुआ हूं। महोदय, समथ्न करने े क साथ-साथ बहुत सारेक्सन् ȅह, िजनके संबंध मȂ मȅसरकार को अवगत कराना चाहता हूं। जब 2001 मȂ एनरॉन घोटाला हुआ और उसके साथ-साथ अमेिरका मȂ वÊड्कॉम ्वेÎट और ्लोबल ्ॉंसग, इन बड़ी-बड़ी कÇपिनयȗ मȂ घोटाले हुए, िजसमȂ चाटȃड अकाउटं Ȃट की कÇपिनयां या उनके फाइनȂिशयल क्सÊटȂ्स इ्वॉÊव थे, उनमȂयेघटनाएं घटं, उस वƪ सारी दुिनया मȂिरफॉम् का दौर शुू हुआ और उसको मLjेनज़र रखतेहुए भारत सरकार नेभी 21 अगÎत 2002 को, िडपाट्मȂट ऑफ कÇपनी अफेयस् नेǛी नरेश च््ा े क नेतृ्व मȂएक हाई लैवल कमेटी ै बठाई। नरेश च््ा कमेटी नेबहुत सारेिरकमȂडेशंस िदए। उन िरकमȂडेशंस े क आधार पर आगेजे.जे.ईरानी कमेटी, Ǜॉफ कमेटी - येसब कमेिटयां ै बठं और हमारा जो 1956 का कÇपनीज़ ए्ट ै ह, उसको पिरव्तत करने े क िलए सोचा गया। वह िवधेयक यहां पर इं्ोǹूज़ िकया गया, Îटȅंडग कमेटी मȂगया, Îटȅंडग कमेटी नेअपनी िरपोट्सिÅमट की। इसी बीच हमने महसूस िकया िक कÇपनीज़ ए्ट मȂकई Ģावधान ȅह, एक िलिमटेड कÇपनी ै ह, एक िलÎटेड कÇपनी ै ह, एक पिÅलक िलिमटेड कÇपनी ै ह, एक Ģाइवेट िलिमटेड कÇपनी ै ह और उसके बाद पाट्नरिशप कÇपनी और Ģोपराइटरिशप कÇपनी ै ह। लेिकन पाट्नरिशप कÇपनी का ऐ्ट बहुत पुराना ै ह और अगर िवदेशी पाट्नर रखना होता ै ह तो उसके बारे मȂबहुत सारी बाधाएं आती ȅह। Ģोपराइटरिशप कÇपनी आिहÎता-आिहÎता हमारेमुÊक मȂ कम होती गयी ्यȗिक जैसेजैसे ै ट्स े क, िडस्लोज़स् े क और िरट्स् े किरफॉÇस् आए, ै वसे- ै वसे Ģोपराइटरिशप वाली कÇपनी की िजÇमेदारी एक आदमी े क ऊपर पड़नेलगी, हमारेयहां जो ्वाइंट ै फिमली कॉ्सेÃट था, वह ख्म होनेलगा। तब यह जो नया कॉ्सेÃट ै ह, Limited Liability Partnership Company, इसको 2008 मȂहमनेएक नया आयाम िदया और वह िवधेयक 2008 मȂपास हुआ जो 2009 मȂनोिटफाई हुआ। िक्तुहमनेपाया िक जो रोल कÇपनी से े ्टरी का ै ह, Section 383(A) of Companies Act, 1956... (1डÅÊयू-एमसीएम पर ्मश:) MCM-PK/1W/12-40 Ǜी एस0एस0 ु अहलवािलया (्मागत) : िजस कÇपनी का पेडअप शेयर े किपटल दो करोड़ या उससे ्यादा ै ह, वहां पर कÇपलसरी ै ह िक एक कÇपनी सै े ्टरी होना चािहए। ै वसेभी सै्शन -233(बी) और 209(1डी) े क तहत कॉÎट एकाउटं Ȃट होनेचािहए, ्यȗिक जब हम िडिवडȂड देते ȅह, जब हम Ģॉिफट लॉस की बात करते ȅह तो उसका सा्टिफकेशन, िकसको िकतना Ģोिफट हुआ, कॉÎट ऑफ Ģोड्शन ्या था और अÊटीमेटली उसको िकतनी Ģाइस पर सेल िकया, इन सारी चीजȗ पर िवचार करने े क िलए भी कॉÎट एंड व्स्एकाउटं Ȃट की जूरत पड़ती ै ह। इसका भी Ģावधान कÇपनी ऐ्ट मȂ ै ह। उसी कÇपनी ऐ्ट मȂसै्शन -224(1) े क तहत एक चाट्ड् एकाउटं Ȃट का सा्टिफकेट चािहए, िकसी भी िरटन्को फाइल करने े क िलए। अभी िपछलेिदनȗ एम0सी0ए0 नेइ्हं िरफॉÇस् को मLjेनजर रखतेहुए एक स्यु्लर जारी िकया, जहां पर उ्हȗनेकहा िक ICSI, ICWAI or ICAI अथ्तचाट्ड्एकाउटं Ȃट, कÇपनी सै े ्टरी और कॉÎट एंड व्स्एकाउटं Ȃट, येअगर िकसी चीज को स्टफाई करते ȅह ऑनलाइन े क िलए िडिजटल िरटन्फाइल करने े क िलए, तो मा्य होगा। महोदय, जब हमनेमहसूस िकया िक आज िलिमटेड लॉइिÅलटी पाट्नरिशप कÇपनी, इसमȂभी एलाउ की जाए िक इसमȂ एक चाट्ड्एकाउटं Ȃट अपनेसाथ कÇपनी सै े ्टरी को भी इंवोÊव कर लेऔर एक कॉÎट एंड व्स्को भी इंवोÊव कर ले, लेिकन आज तक वह सÇभव नहं ै ह। िक्तु आज यह िलिमटेड लॉइिÅलटी पाट्नरिशप फम् बनने से, एल0एल0पी0 कÇपनी बननेसे यह सÇभव हो सकेगा। िसफ् भारत े क िलए नहं, िवदेश का कोई चाट्ड् एकाउटं Ȃट या फाइनȂिशयल कं सलटȂट अगर हमारे ICSI, ICWAI or ICAI े क तहत रिजÎटड्हो सकता ै ह तो ै वसेलोग भी हमारेसाथ कं सलटȂट बन सकȂगे। यह एक अ्छी पहल ै ह और हमारेलोग भी बाहर जा सकȂगे, ्यȗिक हमनेदेखा िक खास करके कॉÎट एंड व्स् वालȗ को बहुत असुिवधा हुई, जब वे चाट्ड् इंÎटीǷूट ऑफ मेनेजमȂट एकाउटं Ȃ्स, CIMA लंदन े क साथ अपना ए्ीमȂट करने जा रहे थे, तो उ्हȗनेकहा िक हम व्स्एकाउटं Ȃट का मतलब नहं समझ रहे ȅह। What is the meaning of Works Accountant? महोदय, कॉÎट एकाउटं Ȃट एंड व्स्एकाउटं Ȃट का कं सेÃट हमारेदेश मȂतब आया, जब हमारे यहां पिÅलक सै्टर इंडÎ्ी का दौर हुआ, जहां टाइम एंड मोशन िडपाट्मȂट एक वक् की लेबर, िकतनेऑवस्, िकस चीज को Ģोǹूज करने े क िलए िकतना समय लगता ै ह, तािक हम अÊटीमेट िफिनश Ģोड्ट को या कॉÎट को एनालाइज कर सकȂ और तब हम उसकीĢाइस िफ्स कर सकȂ, इन सारी चीजȗ को मLjेनजर रखकर िकया गया था। िक्तुआिहÎता-आिहÎता िडस-इंवेÎटमȂट होने े क बाद इनका ICWAI वालȗ का काम भी बंद हो गया। इनको अब नए राÎतेढूंढनेकी जूरत थी। जो CIMA लंदन ै ह, उसके साथ और दूसरेदेशȗ, अथ्त बगल े क हमारेपड़ौसी मुÊक बंगला देश, पािकÎतान और Ǜीलंका ने अपने िवधेयकȗ मȂसंशोधन करके, अपनेकानूनȗ मȂसंशोधन करके उनकी मȂबरिशप ली ै ह। िक्तुहमारे यहां से पास िकए हुए ब्चे वहां जाकर काम नहं कर सकते या उनकी कÇपनी े क िलए काम नहं कर सकते। तो इसिलए यह जूरी था िक हम एक ऐसा संशोधन लाएं और लाकर उनको भी पाट्नर बना सकȂ या उनकी मा्यता ले Ȃ सक, उनकी मेÇबरिशप लेसकȂ, उनसेएिफिलएट हो सकȂ और हम अपना काय्आगेकर सकȂ। महोदय, इ्ही चीजȗ को मLjेनजर रखा गया, िक्तुजो सबसेबड़ा कं सन् ै ह, वह खतरा ै ह और महोदय आप अ्छी तरह से जानतेहȗगे िक िपछलेिदनȗ स्यम घोटाला हुआ, और स्यम घोटाला मȂ Ģाइस वाटर हाउस और यही Ģाइस वाटर हाउस ्लोबल ्Îट बȅक मȂभी जब े कतन पािरख का Îकेम हुआ, उसमȂभी जो उनके फाइनȂिशयल एडवाइजर थे, िजनके सा्टिफकेट पर उनके आई0टी0ओ0 मȂदÎतखत होते ȅह, Ģाइस वाटर हाउस े क बारेमȂ, वेइंवॉÊवड थे। (1X/gs पर ्मश:) PK-GS/12.45/1X/ Ǜी एस.एस. ु अहलवािलया (्मागत): िफर स्यम कÇÃयूटर और Price Ernst & Young Maytas का े कस हुआ। Satyam और Maytas े क बारेमȂ, मुझेबड़ा आÌचय्होता ै ह िक Satyam को आप उलटा करके िलख दȂ, तो वह Maytas बन जाता ै ह, पर्तुहमारेिकसी आर.ओ.सी. वालेको नहं समझ आया िक यह इसी की एक शेल कÇपनी ै ह, जो यह दूसरेनाम सेचला रही ै ह, एक Satyam ै ह और एक Maytas ै ह, दोनȗ कÇपनी एक ही ȅह और एक ही पिरवार की ȅह। दोनȗ मȂदो चाट्ड्अकाउटं Ȃट फÇस्, एक Price Waterhouse और दूसरी Ernst and Young इ्वाÊव थी। यहां तक िक Price Waterhouse को स्यम कÇÃयूटर मȂ ICAI Disciplinary Committee ने काफी Ģोिसंडग करनेकी कोिशश की, पर्तुजो इनके इंिडयन पाट्नर थे, इंिडयन चाट्ड् एकाउटं Ȃट थे, उ्हं े क िखलाफ काय्वाही हो सकी, कÇपनी े क िखलाफ काय्वाही नहं हो सकी। पर्तुयह जो LLP आ रहा ै ह, इस LLP े क मा्यम सेĢाइस वाटर, Ernst and Young, McKenzie, KPMG येसारे पाट्नर बन जायȂगे। LLP े क मा्यम सेयेमािलक बन जायȂगे, िहÎसेदार बन जायȂगे, इसके िलए precautionary measures सरकार ्या लेगी ? आज हमारेकानून मȂऐसा कोई Ģावधान नहं ै ह िक िजसके कारण, अभी जैसे, “The Institute has asked the Ministry of Corporate Affairs, Government of India to grant additional power so that they may proceed against firms whose partners or employees are frequent offenders.”कÇपिनयां ये ही ȅह, िक्तुउनका जो एÇपलाई यहां पर चाट्ड् अकाउटं Ȃट रिजÎटड् ै ह या जो कÇपनी से े ्टरी यहां पर रिजÎटड् ै ह, उसके िखलाफ तो काय्वाही हो जाती ै ह, लेिकन जो िवदेश मȂरिजÎटड् ै ह, उसके िखलाफ काय्वाही नहं होती या कÇपनी े क िखलाफ काय्वाही नहं होती ै ह। ये कÇपिनयां इस ूट सेपाट्नर बन जायȂगी, मािलकाना हक ĢाÃत कर लȂगी। हमȂ सोचना पड़ेगा िक एक तरफ तो हम ये बेिनिफट यहां े क चाट्ड अकाउटं Ȃट को, यहां े क लोगȗ को देरहे ȅह िक बाहर जाकर, दूसरेमुÊकȗ मȂ जाकर एल.एल.पी. मȂ िहÎसेदारी कर सकȂ और िलिमटेड लायिबलटी पाट्नरिशप कर सकȂ और वहां े क लोग यहां आ सकȂ। जब भी कोई फॉरेन डायरे्ट इ्वेÎटमȂट आता ै ह या एफआईआई आती ै ह, तो वह अपनेसाथ अपनेफाइनȂिशयल कं सÊटȂट को लाना चाहती ै ह, पर्तुहमारेयहां इसके िलए Ģावधान नहं ै ह। यह बड़ेआÌचय्की बात ै ह िक कभी हम नोिटिफकेशन पढ़ते ȅह िक हमने Chartered Accountant Firms of Mauritius को अलाऊ िकया हुआ ै ह। अब मॉरीशस े क बारे मȂ, Mauritius overseas corporate bodies े क बारेमȂ, इस सदन मȂकई बार चच् हुई, Îकैम मȂचच् हुई िक वहां शेल कÇपिनयां ȅह और मुझे नहं लगता ै ह िक मॉरीशस मȂ कोई चाट्ड् अकाउटं Ȃट इंÎटीǷुशन ै ह, जहां सेलोग पास करके अ्छेऔर भलेचाट्ड् अकाउटं Ȃट बन रहे ȅह। इस ूट सेभी लोग आयȂगे। े इसक बारे मȂसरकार िकतनी संवेदनशील ै ह, िकतनी जागूक ै ह और उस पर ्या अं ुकश लगाने जा रही ै ह, उसके बारेमȂअगर सरकार सदन को बतायेगी, तो ृ कपा होगी। महोदय, यह बहुत िलिमटेड िबल ै ह। इसमȂमांग जूर की गई थी िक Cost and Works Accountant का नाम Cost and Management Accountant कर िदया जाए। इस पर बहुत चच् हुई और हम लोगȗ नेइसके बारेमȂबार-बार जाननेकी कोिशश की । हमȂपूरी दुिनया मȂअकाउटं Ȃट या चाट्ड् अकाउटं Ȃट की डेिफनेशन तो िमल जाती ै ह, हमȂ फाइनȂिशयल अकाउटं Ȃट की डेिफनेशन और नाम तो िमल जाता ै ह, लेिकन मैनेजमȂट अकाउटं Ȃट की डेिफनेशन कहं नहं िमलती ै ह। पूरी दुिनया मȂकहं मैनेजमȂट अकाउटं Ȃट की डेिफनेशन नहं ै ह इसिलए िवधेयक का नाम यह नहं हो सका। दूसरा, कÇपनी से े ्टरी वालेचाहतेथेिक उनका नाम चाट्ड् से े ्टरी पड़ जाए। वह भी संभव नहं हो सका, उसका कारण ै ह िक चाट्ड् से े ्टरी जब पहलेिĤिटश इंिडया यहां पर थी, जब यहां पर िĤिटश का राज़ था, तो चाट्र कहा जाता था, पर्तुउसके बाद जब हमारा कÇपनीज़ ए्ट पास हुआ था तो उसमȂपिरव्तन िकया गया था, इसिलए इसके औिच्य को नहं समझा गया। मȅयही कहतेहुए, इस िबल का समथ्न करता हूं। साथ ही साथ यह भी कहता हूं िक हमारी कं ्ी मȂकरीब 8 लाख रिजÎटड्कÇपिनयां ै ह, िक्तुहमारेयहां कÇपनी से े ्टरी िसफ् 21836 ȅह। (1Y/ASC पर जारी) 1y/12.50/asc-skc Ǜी एस.एस. ु अहलवािलया (्मागत): जब Registered Company Secretary 21,836 ȅह तो आप समझ सकते ȅह िक हम िकतने लोगȗ से िकतनी कÇपिनयȗ का काम करवा रहे ȅह। हमारी country मȂ Chartered Accountants िसफ् 1,61,516 ȅह, जबिक 8 लाख कÇपिनयां ȅह। As per law हमȂ Section 224(1) of The Companies Act े क तहत Chartered Accountants Certificate की जूरत पड़ती ै ह; उन कÇपिनयȗ मȂहम एक Chartered Accountant से िकतना काम करवाते ȅह। यही कारण ै ह जब date of return का समय होता ै ह, उस समय उनके ऊपर बहुत ्यादा दबाव होता ै ह और वेकाम करनेमȂअसमथ् रहते ै ह तथा काफी असुिवधाओं का सामना करते ȅह। यही कारण ै ह SEBI मȂभी जो Karbi company मȂघोटाला हुआ ै ह, उनके internal auditor, Haribhakti & Company, को उ्हȗने punish िकया। इन सभी चीजȗ का यही कारण ै ह िक उनके ऊपर ै Ģशर बहुत ्यादा ै ह। हमȂ Indian Chartered Accountants Institute मȂदािखला लेने वालȗ की सं्या बढ़ानी चािहए, Company Secretaries की सं्या बढ़ानी चािहए। से्टस् िडस-इ्वेÎट होने जा रहे ै ह, Ģाइवेट से्टस् आ रहे ȅह, इसिलए उनमȂ Cost and Works Accountants का उपयोग नहं हो रहा ै ह। इस सरकार नेअभी एक National Manufacturing Policy िड्लेयर की ै ह। National Manufacturing Policy िड्लेयर होने े क साथ-साथ cost benefit या cost calculation े क िलए Cost and Works Accountants की जूरत पड़ेगी। इसिलए उनकी सं्या भी बढ़नी चािहए, तािक हम सही तरीके से अपनी इंडÎ्ी को चला सकȂ, disclosure सही हो े सक, transparency सही हो सके और येलोग भी अपनेकाम को ्याय देसकȂ। इ्हं शÅदȗ े क साथ मȅ इस िबल का समथ्न करतेहुए, अपनी बात समाÃत करता हूं। (समाÃत) DR. BHALCHANDRA MUNGEKAR (NOMINATED): Sir, I support all the three Bills, which are integrated, inter-related and consistent with each other, as far as their content is concerned. This is a most timely measure that the Government is undertaking. Since 1991 the Indian economy has been globalizing and getting more and more integrated into the world economy. The structure of the economy, the dimensions of the economy and the relationships among different financial and industrial entities are also undergoing a change. That is why, legislations in a country prevailing upon at a particular point of time also need to undergo change in order to accommodate the requirements of changing circumstances. That is why I fully support all the three Bills – The Chartered Accountant (Amendment) Bill, 2010, The Cost and Works Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010, and The Company Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 2010. Now, there is nothing substantial here which needs me to deal with extensively. In the beginning, I must congratulate Shri Ahluwalia for most of the points that he has mentioned. I fully support them and I am inclined to agree with what he has said. Since its beginning, the Chartered Accountants service has been a highly professional service and that is why the results of the Chartered Accountants examinations never exceeded six per cent. He has just now mentioned the statistics. Taking into account the number of legal, industrial concerns and companies, the number of Chartered accountants and the number of Secretaries is not only inadequate but grossly inadequate. Now, under these circumstances, there is always a tendency on the part of the players in the market to enjoy the scarcity rate. Now, this whole body fully understands what is meant by ‘scarcity rate’. In a particular locality, if 15 years ago there were ten MBBS Doctors and one Dental Surgeon, now there are ten Dental Surgeons and one MBBS Doctor. After liberalization and privatization of education, practically every medical college, whether required or not, has been giving admissions to Dental Surgeons, and that is why 50 per cent of the Dental Surgeons are on the footpath, just like Notaries go to the High Court and get affidavits. (contd. at 1z/hk) HK/1z/12.55 DR. BHALCHANDRA MUNGEKAR (CONTD.): That is why from this point of view, when the economy is growing at the rate of 8 to 8.5 per cent, the structure of the economy is undergoing a change. The share of the services sector is increasing alarmingly even much higher than the contribution of the manufacturing sector or industry to the GDP. We must sufficiently increase the number of both Company Secretaries and the Chartered Accountants. But this is the quantity dimension of Chartered Accountants. The most important thing is the professional ethics of these professionals. We have been discussing, time and again, black money in the economy. We are talking about bringing back black money to the country. Estimates are very much different. But we scarcely discuss -- and sometimes it is painful to me -- how the black money is generated and that generation of black money is substantially related to the professional management of the companies and the company entities. For example, the owners of the company do not know how to manipulate the transactions. It is depending upon the acumen and the intelligence of the professional bodies to guide the firms and the concerns as to how to transfer money from one account to another account undertaking all the anomalies. And it is in this context, when I see the Economic Survey of India, I find that the maximum Foreign Institutional Investment in India is coming from Mauritius. What is the size of Mauritius? That is why it is quite possible that money is illegally taken by some entities to foreign countries with the advice and superb consultancy with the Chartered Accountants and Company Secretaries and that money is legally brought in the form of Financial Institutional Investment on which today more than 50 per cent of the Stock Exchange functioning in this country is depending. That is why along with the quantity of Chartered Accountants and Company Secretaries, the professional ethics in this country, unfortunately, are declining very fast and sometimes I feel that it is going to the point beyond no repairs. The second point is regarding precautionary measures, changing the name of the Act and applying the Limited Liability Partnership Act provisions to this Act. In a country where professional ethics decline or is lacking, in that country it is possible to get higher rate of growth but it is impossible to make growth inclusive. It is from this point of view when we are discussing the issues of inclusive growth, all these things are related to inclusive growth. And I just mentioned about scarcity rate. There is a tendency on the part of people -- we call it 'oligopoly' in Economics; we call it sometimes 'monopoly' -- to form cartel. Just now Shri Ahluwaliaji mentioned that number of Chartered Accountants and Chartered Accountant firms are overburdened with the jobs which they are undertaking from different firms. But in the process what is happening is that these are not independent jobs that they are doing. When ten firms are taking 100 companies jobs, in the process they are forming the cartel, and, in that cartel, it is possible to exploit the profit beyond range; that is called the scarcity rate. I appreciate all these amendments. It is also necessary to change the nomenclature. As it was earlier mentioned, these three Bills will try to remove the anomalies and the ambiguities of terms 'firm', 'partner', 'partnership, and 'sole proprietorship'. Most of the time when I was teaching -- let me share with you very, very briefly and in a lighter vein -- Labour Economics in the University of Mumbai, I found that there were several Acts but there was no one standard definition of 'workman'. We are discussing bonus; we are discussing minimum wages; we are discussing standard wages, but we don't have standard definition even today of 'workman'. (Contd. by 2a/KSK) DR. BHALCHANDRA MUNGEKAR (CONTD): Now, these kinds of anomalies are creating confusion and this confusion is utilised by the vested interests in order to seek the scarcity rate. That is why, I support this Bill and, at the same time, I suggest that we should try to bring the legislation which will be consistent with the modernisation of the economy and also will be dealing with the professional ethics and transparency. Thank you, Sir. (Ends) (MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair) MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, Shri Narendra Kumar Kashyap. Ǜी Ĥजेश पाठक : सर, उनकी जगह मȅबोलना चाहता हँू। Ǜी उपसभापित : ठीक ै ह। Ǜी Ĥजेश पाठक (उDŽर Ģदेश) : ध्यवाद सर। आपनेमुझेबहुत ही मह्वपूण् िबल पर बोलनेका मौका िदया। MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members, it is now one o’clock. We will complete this Bill before 1.30 p.m. At 1.30 p.m., we will adjourn for lunch, and after lunch, we will take up the Appropriation (No.4) Bill, 2011. Ǜी Ĥजेश पाठक : सर, The Chartered Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010; The Cost and Works Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010 and The Company Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 2010, ये तीनȗ िबल सूÑम हो सकते ȅह, लेिकन अपनी भारतीय अथ्ËयवÎथा े क िलए बहुत ही मह्वपूण्िबल ȅह। अभी हमारेसािथयȗ नेअपनेिवचार Ëय्DŽ िकए। उ्हȗने अपने िवचार Ëयƪ करने े क दौरान यह बात रखी िक भारतीय अथ्ËयवÎथा मȂचाट्ड् एकाउटं Ȃ्स, कं पनी से े ्टरीज़ और कॉÎट एंड व्स् एकाउटं Ȃ्स िकस तरह सेभूिमका िनभा रहे ȅह। अभी वत्मान पिरृÌय मȂहम लोगȗ े क समष अ्सर कालेधन यानी Åलैक मनी की चच् आती ै ह। कालेधन को सफ़ेद धन ै कसेबनाया जाए और कं पिनयȗ को धन मु ै हया करानेमȂहम इन चाट्ड् एकाउटं Ȃ्स की भूिमका देखते ȅह। अभी हाल ही मȂआपनेदेखा, मारीशस की भी चच् हुई और उन देशȗ की भी चच् हुई, िजनको tax haven े क नाम सेजाना जाता ै ह, िक भारतीय अथ्ËयवÎथा को चौपट करनेमȂिकस ढंग सेइन संÎथाओं का योगदान रहा ै ह। इन अमȂडमȂ्स े क साथ हमारा यह भी सुझाव ै ह िक हम इनको िकस ढंग सेिविनयिमत कर सकते ȅह, िजससे वाÎतव मȂजो नंबर एक का धन ै ह, नंबर एक की मनी ै ह, उसी का उपयोग हो पाए और कालेधन का उपयोग िवदेशȗ े क जिरए हवाला े क जिरए न होने पाए। सर, इन संशोधनȗ े क जिरए हम अपनेदेश की फमș को िवदेश मȂकाम करनेकी अनुमित देनेवाले ȅह तथा िवदेश की फमș को अपनेदेश मȂकाम करनेकी अनुमित े दनेवाले ȅह। जब िवदेशी उǏोगपित हमारेदेश मȂिकसी उǏोग मȂअपना धन लगानेका काम करते ȅह, तो उनकी मंशा होती ै ह िक वे इस देश े क अ्दर अपनेकाम े क साथ अपनेिवDŽीय सलाहकार जोड़नेका काम करȂ। इसी को अनुमित देने े क िलए इन िबÊस को लानेकी जूरत पड़ीै ह। माननीय उपसभापित महोदय, हम लोग इन िबÊस का समथ्न करने े क िलए खड़ेजूर हुए ȅह, लेिकन हमारेजो मह्वपूण् सुझाव ȅह, उन पर भी ्यान देने की आवÌयकता ै ह िक इन कÇपिनयȗ े क मा्यम से ये कÇपनी से े ्टरीज़, कॉÎट एकाउटं Ȃ्स और चाट्ड् एकाउटं Ȃ्स, जो Åलैक मनी को regularize करनेका काम कर रहे ȅह, हमȂउसेभी रोकनेकी आवÌयकता ै ह। ध्यवाद। (समाÃत) SHRI T.K. RANGARAJAN (TAMIL NADU): Sir, the Government is bringing in these three Bills, namely, the Chartered Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010, the Cost and Works Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010, and the Company Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 2010. The idea behind these amendment Bills is to enable them to form Limited Liability Partnership firms. In the case of ICWAI, the name has been changed to the Institute of Cost and Management Accountants, which may enable the Institute to go for Mutual Recognition Agreement. My only apprehension is that bringing them under the Limited Liability Partnership will help the black sheep in the profession. The amendments will be fodder for the honest professionals of these Institutes. (continued by 2b – gsp)GSP-SCH-1.05-2B SHRI T.K. RANGARAJAN (CONTD.): A few words have been spoken by the hon. Member from the Congress Party about ethics of this job. These institutes, all along these years, have been functioning under the regime of unlimited partnership only, and, in my opinion, the unlimited liability partnership is not a stumbling block for the development of these institutes. They are also functioning very effectively. Sir, when it comes to amending the Bill pertaining to the Institute of Chartered Accountants of India, I would like to bring to the knowledge of the august House, the serious implications, the limited liability Bill will bring. The serious implications arise because of the policy of the present Government to open the doors for foreign firms performing accounting services. These companies sneaked into India under the garb of Management Consulting Firms and took over surrogate C.A. firms for their nefarious games. The Enron collapsed. The Global Trust Bank failed. The Satyam Computers fudged the accounts, and, recently, a mining company belonging to * was found doing illegal mining. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Expunged as ordered by the Chair. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Don’t take the name. (Interruptions) SHRI T.K. RANGARAJAN: All these are audited by the surrogate C.A. firms and are witness to the nefarious games of the foreign management consulting firms. If you lift the veil, you find the names of Price Waterhouse, Arthur Andersen, DH & Sells, and, others. The dominant management consulting firms in the United States are (a) Price Waterhouse, (2) Ernst and Young, (3) KPMG, and, (4) Deloitte Haskins and Sells. We have Tri-murti. We are bringing Char-murti. They are controlling almost the entire management consulting in the United States, and, nobody knows as to who are the real owners of these companies even in the United States. Further, these companies have their controlling offices in tax havens. This shows the standard of their audit. Because these companies cannot do the audit in India directly, they lure a local C.A. firm to be their surrogate and carry on their nefarious activities. And, when the ICAI pointed out to these firms that they could not do the auditing by these surrogate firms, these foreign companies never cared for the objection raised by the ICAI. These are the professional ethics, which these companies or firms are having. Sir, in India, the ICAI is a body created by an Act of Parliament. So, it is under the direct supervision of the Union Government but in the United States, it is a State subject. Each State has its own laws. They do not allow our C.A. firms to enter into their country but they are entering into our country wearing a different garb and we simply wink over it. Sir, in the context of these foreign consulting firms luring Indian audit firms to be the surrogate, don’t you think that the limited liability Bill will be handy for these foreign firms to lure the Indian audit firms further easily as their liability is limited now. Sir, in the entire world, India stands second in the number of Chartered Accountants, next only to the United States. Even UK does not have this much of Chartered Accountants. When this is our strength, why should we kneel before the foreign firms? Where is the necessity for allowing the foreign management consulting firms? These firms do not respect the laws of our land. Numerous letters were written by the ICAI to these foreign firms seeking the information of audit companies in India, but they never cared to reply. This is the respect that they give to our Institute, which is constituted under a statute passed by our Parliament. The remedy you are trying to give by the Limited Liability Bill is like giving ‘crocin’ for cancer. (Contd. by YSR-2C) -GSP/YSR/1.10/2C SHRI T.K. RANGARAJAN (CONTD.): Before introducing Limited Liability Partnership Firms for the ICAI, I demand that the Government must call the ICAI to immediately take action on all surrogate firms operating in India. Two, pending final action, these firms must be instantly blacklisted and the Government must ask SEBI to direct listed companies from changing such tainted auditors. Three, the Ministry of Corporate Affairs needs to take action on all multinational accounting firms operating in India as consulting firms. Four, the ICAI must be asked to explain why despite the JPC’s directions it failed to act against Pricewaterhouse Coopers in the Global Trust Bank case which ultimately led to the Satyam scandal. Five, the Reserve Bank must explain why Pricewaterhouse Coopers is allowed to continue as auditors for the Global Trust Bank despite the reservation expressed by the JPC. Above all, the Government should review the alternative route of entry of foreign accounting firms in India in the name of management consulting firms and the circumvention of the law of the land taking place directly and indirectly by performing accounting services by them. With these words, I conclude and request the Minister to consider all these issues. (Ends) MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Lunch-break will be there after the Bill is passed. SHRI PYARIMOHAN MOHAPATRA (ODISHA): Sir, I will take only two minutes. A number of issues have already been raised. I agree with my colleagues on the issue of activities of foreign accounting firms in India. There is a need to consolidate our accounting firms. I rise to support these three amending legislations. It would help in their consolidation. Consolidation is already taking place because of non-application of Limited Liability Partnership Act, 2008 to these professions. Consolidation was taking place but slowly. Now this will move faster and, in the process, hopefully, Indian firms will not be the tail-ender of foreign firms or their agents. They would be competing with those firms on their own. Having said this, I have some reservations like one of my previous speakers who mentioned the kind of things our chartered accountants have been doing. He mentioned Mauritius which is a very familiar example. Plenty of examples are there in stock exchange manipulations. Plenty of examples are available to see what these professions, particularly of chartered accountants, have done to our national exchequer. Every time you go to file your income tax, your chartered accountant will tell you how to avoid paying tax by making a very thin line between tax avoidance and tax evasion. You pay your taxes. But once you afford a chartered accountant, he saves your tax in a legal manner. How much the country loses on this account, unfortunately, has not been calculated by the Finance Ministry. They ought to have done so. They ought to do so now and see the dangers which these combinations possess or these professions possess and how these professions can be reined in so that the national interest is not affected. (Contd. by KR/2D) KR/2D/1.15 SHRI PYARIMOHAN MOHAPATRA (CONTD.) : One small issue that I have with the Cost and Works Accountants is about the amendment to the 'cost accountancy' calling them Cost and Management Accountancy. Management accountancy as a subject as such is not the preserve syllabi of the cost accountancy. When somebody passes cost accountancy, it is nobody's case that that person alone learns management accountancy. Management accountancy is a much more generic issue which is taught in MBA (Finance) which also other Chartered Accountants learn, which also to some extent Company Secretaries learn if you look at the syllabi of that also. So, I wish that the recommendations of the Standing Committee to cut out that management from Indian Cost and Management should have been accepted. I wish that should have been accepted and also in case of a Company Secretaries the amendment suggested regarding calling them Chartered Secretaries should have been accepted. I hope the Government will think about it in future. (Ends) SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Mr Deputy Chairman, I must commend the excellent suggestions given by all the distinguished Members from this side and also from the other side of the House. I think, this is a great step which has been taken, particularly, to respond to the vibrant service sector. Many, many concerns have also been expressed. But you also appreciate that all those concerns cannot be addressed only through these Bills. We have a comprehensive Companies' Bill, 2011 which has already been moved in the Lok Sabha. I feel that that Bill will address many of these problems which have been raised here. Hon. Members have also referred to certain issues which have to be tackled by the Reserve Bank of India; and some of the issues have to be tackled by the SEBI also. There are so many agencies which have to address those problems. I would like to answer a few queries which are germane to the question before us. In fact, the limited liability partnership is always viewed as an alternate corporate business vehicle that provides the benefits of limited liability. But also allows its members the flexibility of organizing their internal structure as a partnership of a mutually arrived agreement. It will enable the entrepreneurs, professionals, enterprises, corporate bodies, what kind of services they require. In fact, these are the days where there is no place for mediocrity. Now, we require excellent services, world class services. That does not mean that world class services will come only from abroad. We need to nurture indigenously. We must enable our professional institutes to develop these. We need to provide them that kind of legal environment so that they can build themselves up. We have an excellent ladder by which we can climb. The hon. Deputy Chairman himself is a Chartered Accountant of the highest repute. (Continued by 2E) -KR-TMV-DS/2E/1.20 SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY (CONTD.): You will appreciate that we need to have a lot of capacity building within those professional institutes or professional bodies. This is only one such vehicle by which we will allow them to grow and build themselves into legal entities and to organise themselves. Wherever a deficit is there that will be definitely and adequately provided for by this kind of a legal environment. That doesn’t mean that it is the end of the journey. There are a lot of things which need to be done to build capacity. Why don’t we have the biggest institutions of the world? On one occasion, where the hon. Deputy Chairman was also present, I said that we wanted 100 such legal entities to come up within five years or ten years. Let us prepare the roadmap which I have already discussed with all the three Institutes. I said, “Whatever you require that you must get and I want not less than 100 such magnificent institutes or giants in the world to be produced by India”. We are taking many other steps to create such entities in the country. We need to have them. We can’t be only pigmies and we can’t subserve only the foreign companies. I think that kind of a personality needs to be built and it is only a step in that direction. In fact, the proposed amendments will enable professionals of all the three Institutes to provide the other members of the Institute and also to form partnership with all the members of either of these recognised Institutes. That flexibility is now provided. The LLPs are given encouragement in the country, particularly, after the LLP Act was enacted in 2008. As on 30 th September, 2011, 6,439 LLPs have registered in the country mainly in the business service, trading, real estate, rentals, construction and so on. That is the trend of the world and we can’t disable these Institutes from building that kind of a legal world entity. Now these amendments will make the services of these three Institutes to grow like that and join the big market, particularly, in the LLP sector. In fact, a number of things have been stated here by the distinguished Members. You all know that our senior Member, Shri Ahluwalia, has given a number of suggestions. He has expressed a number of concerns. Some of them, as I have already told you, will be definitely addressed by the Company Bill. We have seen to it and the present amendments, in fact, have provided for that. One overarching approach which I would like to say is with regard to the change of name in the case of Institute of Cost and Works Accountants. They want that management should be added. We have dealt with that and deliberated on that. We can’t agree with that. As rightly pointed out by a distinguished senior Member that the term “management” is generic in nature. Suppose we add management to the Cost and Works Accountants, then it should not be assumed that the management component is excluded from the other Institutes. These are the legal problems. We tried to examine it and even the Standing Committee tried to examine it thoroughly, and, ultimately, they came to the conclusion that the term “management” can’t be added. But, in fact, we have deleted some words and the rest of it remained there. (Contd. by 2F/mks) MKS-HMS/1.25/2F SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY (CONTD.): Coming to some of the matters which have been referred to by the distinguished Members, I would like to say that about the Satyam case, the Institute of Chartered Accountants has already instituted action through the disciplinary mechanism. You all know that disciplinary mechanism has to be exercised by the respective Institutes, and on both, the Satyam and the Global Trust Bank, and also, the Chartered Accountants and others involved in these banks and in the companies, the actions were delayed. That is because of many of the court proceedings. We have been pursuing that. Recently, the process has, again, started after having the necessary clearance from the court proceedings. In fact, in Satyam case, maximum punishment has been awarded to the Chartered Accountants who are involved in that. So, we are pursuing that matter. In fact, it is right that multinational companies come as management consultants and have started functioning through surrogate firms. They have been doing it. ICAI has examined the violations of these multinational funds. They were examined by the Ministry, and the matter has been taken up with the regulatory authorities like RBI, SEBI etcetera. They are under serious consideration, and we will try to expedite those proceedings. Hon. Member T.K. Rangarajan, as you know, has mentioned about the foreign firms entering into India through surrogate firms. That I have already answered. He said that real owners are not known; they do not care about the objections raised by the ICAI. Why not allow foreign firms when, you know, they fail to reply properly, to account for it? In fact, ICAI has advised to take action against violations of these. And they have seriously taken it up. I think, we will definitely address them seriously and take a proper action. Our distinguished Member Mohapatra has already asked… SHRI RUDRA NARAYAN PANY: Mr. Mohapatra! SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Mohapatra. SHRI RUDRA NARAYAN PANY: Mr. Mohapatra. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Mr. Mohapatra. Distinguished Member Mr. Mohapatra! Am I correct? MS. MABEL REBELLO: Happy? SHRI RUDRA NARAYAN PANY: Yes. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: …in fact, after independence, why a colonial name like Chartered should be there. You know, this is a matter which is left to the Chartered Accountants of India to consider; I do not want to make further comment on that. Particularly after the Enron and other global financial scams, the Government of India has made substantial changes in the Chartered Accountants Act. The amendments, after getting passed, have permitted even award of a monetary penalty up to Rs.5 lakhs. Besides the maximum punishment to the personnel involved in the scam, the action has been taken. Fortunately, very prompt action taken, particularly on Satyam, has saved a number of stakeholders. SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: What about the Price Waterhouse? SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: About the Price Waterhouse also, the action has been taken. And we can take action. It is not that we cannot take action. As I have already told you, since there are a number of court cases, we could not do it. But, anyway, we will seriously look into it and try to see that wherever it is possible to take action, we will not hesitate. Moreover, you all know that the amendment to the comprehensive Company Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, which is coming up, has provided many things on this, particularly to provide for the appropriate ethics and standards to be maintained by the various corporate bodies, and this will definitely provide, you know, enough punishment. SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, please yield for a minute. (Contd. by VK/2G) VK/2G/1.30SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA (CONTD): Let me tell you why we are concerned. We have seen the Harshad Mehta scam. There we found that auditors were involved. We saw another stock market scam where also auditors were involved. Now in the recent 2G scam, you will be surprised to know that in all the cases of all these companies, whatever certificates were given by the auditors that their authorized capital is this much and paid up capital is this much, were false. They got the license on the basis of false certificates issued by the auditors. It is a very serious issue, Sir. DR. ASHOK S. GANGULY: Sir, it is a very serious issue. I want to make a point. Hon. Minister, I think the issue is very serious and it will come up in the Companies Bill. But the point is, the global chartered and accountancy firms have a monopoly and this has to be broken. The Indian Institute of Chartered Accountants must be empowered and it must be insisted upon that auditors of professional integrity, who come under the law, must be promoted and those who give such certificates that Ahluwaliaji is talking about, the hon. Minister is talking about, must be banned from this profession. It is a much larger issue. We will take it up at the future date when the Companies Bill comes up. But this is a global menace. It is not a national menace alone. This is not to condemn the profession of chartered accountancy, but those who slip into the profession under the garb of becoming Chartered Accountants, that has to be taken into account. I compliment the hon. Member and the hon. Minister because I have been interacting with the Department of Corporate Affairs. But this is an issue of a much larger dimension. Thank you. SHRI S.S. AHLUWALIA: Sir, I started my speech by saying about the wrong doings of America. It has started from America. SHRI T.K. RANGARAJAN: I would again like to draw the attention of the Minister and request the Government to review the alternative route of entry of foreign accounting firm in India in the name of management consulting firms. Let him reply to that. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He has said that. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Mr. Deputy Chairman, Sir, in fact, our hon. Member is having a very vast experience in the company affairs and also corporate governance. The distinguished Member has already given suggestions. In fact, we have held discussions with him. Many a time, I have also discussed with him. In fact, you all know that the Serious Fraud Investigation Office, SFIO has emerged from an Executive Order. There was no legislative backup for that. Now in the new Companies Bill, we have given it a legislative status. A number of things have been included so that if any serious fraud happens, they cannot just escape. We have also provided many things to prevent such frauds happening from time to time; for providing the most transparent administration in the corporate bodies. We have also taken initiatives to come out with a national corporate governance policy. We never had that kind of a policy. We are also coming out with a National Competition Policy. We never had that kind of a policy. We need to fit in many of the mechanisms which we are lacking. That is what we are trying to do. In fact, many of the questions and concerns which have been raised by the distinguished Members today, we have directly addressed them in the Companies Bill. The Companies Bill has provided remedies for many of these things. When it comes to that, we will discuss it in more details. I do not want to deal with that now. As far as the inclusive part of the corporate bodies is concerned, as raised by the distinguished Member, Dr. Mungekar, we have provided that. For the first time in the world, we have provided a legal status for the corporate social responsibility in our Companies Bill. We have provided for that. That is why I do not want to prolong the reply. It would be suffice to say that a number of inputs which have been given by all of you, will be considered not only in the Companies Bill, but also in many of the regulations which we are going to pass in future. I commend the Bill for the consideration of the House. (Ends) (Followed by 2h) RG/1.35/2H MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall first put the Motion regarding consideration of the Chartered Accountants (Amendment) Bill to vote. The question is: That the Bill further to amend the Chartered Accountants Act, 1949, be taken into consideration. The motion was adopted. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill. Clauses 2 and 3 were added to the Bill. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, clause 1. There is one amendment (No.2) by the Minister. Clause 1: Short title and commencement SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: I move: (No.2) That at page 1, line 2, for the figure “2010” the figure “2011” be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 1, as amended, was added to the Bill. ENACTING FORMULA SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: That at page 1, line 1, for the word “Sixty-first” word “Sixty-second” be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. The Enacting Formula, as amended, was added to the Bill. The Title was added to the Bill. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: That the Bill, as amended, be passed. The question was put and the motion was adopted. (Ends) MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now put the Motion regarding consideration of the Cost and Works Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010, to vote. The question is: That the Cost and Works Accountants (Amendment) Bill, 2010, be taken into consideration. The motion was adopted. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up clause-byclause consideration of the Bill. In clause 2, there is one amendment (No.3) by the Minister. Clause 2: Substitution of references to certain expressions by certain other expressions. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No.3) That at page 1, lines 7 to 12, be deleted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 2, as amended, was added to the Bill. Clause 3 -- Amendment of section 2. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No.4) That at page 2, line 1, for the words “principal Act”, the words, figure and brackets “Cost and Works Accountants Act, 1959 hereinafter referred to as the principal Act)” be substituted. (No. 5). That at page 2, line 12, for the words “Institute of Cost and Management Accountants of India”, the words “Institute of Cost Accountants of India” be substituted.(No.6). That at page 2, line 25, for the words “cost and management accountancy”, the words “cost accountancy” be substituted. (No.7). That at page 2, line 33, for the words “cost and management accountancy”, the words “cost accountancy” be substituted. (No.8). That at page 2, line 36, for the words “cost and management accounting”, the words “cost accounting” be substituted. (No.9). That at page 2, lines 37 and 38, for the words “cost and management accountant”, the words “cost accountant” be substituted. (No.10). That at page 2, lines 39 and 40, be deleted. The questions were put and the motions were adopted. Clause 3, as amended, was added to the Bill. Clause 4 -- Amendment of section 3. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No.11). That at page 2, lines 42 and 43, for the words “Institute of Cost and Management Accountants of India”, the words “Institute of Cost Accountants of India” be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 4, as amended, was added to the Bill. Clause 5 -- Amendment of section 5. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No.12). That at page 3, line 5, for the words “Institute of Cost and Management Accountants of India”, the words “Institute of Cost Accountants of India” be substituted. (No.13). That at page 3, line 9, for the words “Institute of Cost and Management Accountants of India”, the words “Institute of Cost Accountants of India” be substituted. The questions were put and the motions were adopted. Clause 5, as amended, was added to the Bill. Clause 6 -- Amendment of section 22A SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No.14) That at page 3, line 11, for the words “Institute of Cost and Management Accountants of India”, the words “Institute of Cost Accountants of India” be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 6, as amended, was added to the Bill. Clause 7 -- Amendment of Section 25. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No.15). That at page 3, line 14, for the words “cost and management accountants”, the words “cost accountant” be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 7, as amended, was added to the Bill. Clause 8 was added to the Bill. (Followed by 2J) 2j/1.40/ks MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 9. There is one amendment (No. 16) by the Minister. CLAUSE 9 – AMENDMENT OF FIRST SCHEDULE SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No. 16) That at page 3, lines 22 and 23, for the words "Institute of Cost and Management Accountants of India", the words "Institute of Cost Accountants of India" be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 9, as amended, was added to the Bill.CLAUSE 10 – AMENDMENT OF SECOND SCHEDULE SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No. 17) That at page 3, lines 24 and 25, be deleted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 10, as amended, was added to the Bill. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up clause 1. There is one amendment (No. 2) by the Minister. CLAUSE 1 - SHORT TITLE AND COMMENCEMENT SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No. 2) That at page 1, line 4, for the figure "2010", the figure "2011" be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 1, as amended, was added to the Bill. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up the Enacting Formula. There is one amendment (No. 1) by the Minister. ENACTING FORMULA SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No. 1) That at page 1, line 1, for the word "Sixty-first", the word "Sixty-second" be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. The Enacting Formula, as amended, was added to the Bill. The Title was added to the Bill. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: That the Bill, as amended, be passed. The question was put and the motion was adopted. (Ends) THE COMPANY SECRETARIES (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2010 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I shall put the Company Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 2010 moved by Shri Veerappa Moily to vote. The question is:- That the Bill further to amend the Company Secretaries Act, 1980, be taken into consideration. The motion was adopted. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up Clause-byClause consideration of the Bill. Clauses 2 and 3 were added to the Bill. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up Clause 1. There is one amendment (No. 2) by the Minister. Clause 1– Short title, extent and commencement SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No. 2) That at page 1, line 4, for the figure "2010", the figure "2011" be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. Clause 1, as amended, was added to the Bill. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, we shall take up the Enacting Formula. There is one amendment (No. 1) by the Minister. ENACTING FORMULA SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: (No. 1) That at page 1, line 1, for the word "Sixty-first", the word "Sixty-second" be substituted. The question was put and the motion was adopted. The Enacting Formula, as amended, was added to the Bill. The Title was added to the Bill. SHRI M. VEERAPPA MOILY: Sir, I move: That the Bill, as amended, be passed. The question was put and the motion was adopted. (Ends) MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, the House is adjourned for lunch for one hour. ------- The House then adjourned for lunch at forty-five minutes past one of the Clock
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