CA articles is not useless unless u make it by choice but certainly very restricted approach of icai regarding articleship concerning ban on transfer ,payment of a 1000 stipend a month,training has to be taken under a member of icai etc is seriously annoying,requirement to be in service of aticles to attempt an exam.

Conclusion : CA is a worth it course if u wanna make a career in india but internationally any job offer would consider Cima ,Acca,Cpa equivalent to CA..These courses could  be Finished off within 2.5 to 3 years unlike CA.

It depends where u want to make a career.

Tumhara problem identity crisis ka hi hai. apne waqad per  ahi gaye .Ca toh tumne kar nahi sake ab cwa   ke sahare kuchh bera par lag jaye toh kya baat hain.  Mujhe lagata tumahara name bhi change karna chahiye. nagesh =nagsion. Good please go ahead.

Dear Friends,

Consider the following inputs before punching strokes :

• IFAC Accounting Education Standards do not differentiate between a professional accountant coming through articles route and through relevant experience route in business. Both are treated at par. Ony for practising as a public accountant articleship experience is relevant.
• The Institute of Chartered Accountants of England and Wales does not make compulsory audit experience as an articled clerk compulsory to appear for exams and also become its member. Only if you want to practice in UK , audit exposure becomes relevant and that too perhaps due to FRC framework.

Most of our conflicting views will be resolved if we update ourselves and exchange views calmly .

A.N.Raman

Dear Raman Sir,

Your stature as Member IFAC and President SAFA is much above the maturity level of this portal and even presidents of ICAI(old) & ICAI (new). All the prestigious CA & CMA Institute of the World (like Australia) have given you memberships and commemorations. No Professional Accountant has reached to your status till date in this country.   Your knowledge level is far beyond and beyond and beyond the thinking level and height of participant here. All the members participating here together are not even an iota of you.  They try to answer you instead of learning, admiring and gaining. This pained every member of this august accounting profession.

Respectful regards

No Professional Accountant has reached to your status till date in this country.   Your knowledge level is far beyond and beyond and beyond the thinking level and height of participant here. All the members participating here together are not even an iota of you. 

Yes it is true. Even God can not save the person who can't understand the greatness of Shri A.N. Raman Sir.

What the hell is happening here. I thought CAs are too sincer persons but all the persons supporting CA, are fighting like $#%$#. I am doing CA but not biased to the extent that I abuse any other profession.

Dear friends be professional, at least at such a public platform. I request all of you dont disgrace the profession by indulging in such a bull sh*t fight.

I have practically stopped replying in this forum as I feel that it is more of a shadow boxing that is taking place with only punches as a focus.

It is important that we learn to respect all professions and professional bodies. It is unfortunate that some black sheep who are in leadership positions  assume some arrogant powers and intimidate/tarnish the other profession and the professional bodies. These political black sheep driven by insane ignorance do not allow serendipity and wisdom on both sides to govern.

Both CA and CMA have their respective roles to play in their statutory and non statutory sphere. If only that intellectual maturity can dawn, there can be a peaceful coexistence. For example,articleship with a CA or traineeship with a CMA certainly have their own advantages. Instead of speaking on their demerits why not we build on their strength. Today it is a world of careful competency planning and structured frameworks for developing human resources. If we benchmark ourselves with the Bloom Taxonomy of cognitive skills weas professional institutes  will find that we have a long way to travel.  By planning a journey in that path we can be on the top of the world in reality in contrast to rhetoric. The professional accounatncy bodies can outdo others in the world instead of trying to outdo within the borders.

If I talk with authoritative facts and sources I am attacked personally. If I argue differently facts are bigger than Raman Ji. I am not clear at all about what we are debating with this endless punches. One thing I have realised now that we are wasting our energy on this endless debate.

A.N.Raman     

Political black ship dose exit , person you like becomes favoritism and nepotism like ICAI or CMA or any body. Then peaceful co extitance. is not feasible

I have just copied and pasted ur mail. Cannot understand this sentence . Can u please explain  ? . 

International bodies are in harmony for the sake of promoting domsectic accouting profession at the world level. I think we the first country fighting like this.

IF CIMA UK promoting CMA not in UK but outside UK, IMA US never is fighting with CPA US , CMA Canada and CA are on the edge of merger.

Such mergers are taking place after mutually respecting each other at the same level. I have had personal discussions with both CMA Canada and CA Canada CEOs and know the spirit behind. Such processes are possible only if serendipity overtakes eye for eye and tooth for tooth policies.

A.N.Raman

Dear Shri Rajat Gupta Ji,

You have made interesting statements but given a twist the way you want to see. Never mind as knowing your compulsions I am not surprised.

I am not aware of your background experience, type of exposure, etc as they matter when it comes to the credinility you lend in the context of a debate on cost and management accounting. I am aged 53 now and in the field of Cost and management Accounting from 1978. Even when I did my articleship for CA  with PW at Delhi , it was in consultancy division doing management accounting assignments and not audits. I am in practice of CMA for the past twenty years and gained lot of credibility in the CMA field academically as well as with industry. I played a major role in developing a maturity model on internal management accounting for an industry chambers which is now patented as world's first maturity model.

I had the opportunity of learning from some of the renowned giants in the field of CMA like Robert Kaplan, Gary Cokins, Peter Turney, Vijay Govindarajan , etc who have all contributed to the field in a big way.There is avery famous product of Kaplan called the Rise and Fall of Management Accounting which has brilliantly portrayed the evolution of the subject. Why I am stating all these is to reveal my background work in these field which gives me  certain weightage to talk about patiently to any audience. At a rhetoric level one can brush aside all these. Like  any student of IFRS can certainly pick up an argument with the Chairman of IAASB . But the difference in background if any cannot be ignored.

Even if you track all the creative work in the field of CMA after 1980s, they have all come either from Management Professors or CMA bodies.  Not a single contribution from other bodies. My growth in the field of CMA and leadership position acknowledged by industry associations as well, is entirely attributable to the opportunities provided by ICWAI and global CMA bodies who do lot of work in these fields. ICAI or global CA bodies do not focus in this field. This is not about  whether it is a common area of practice or not. It is all about the course emphasis, the advocacy and the specialisation the bodies seek. Look at all the leading books on Management Accounting ranging from Kaplan to Atkinson ( there is no leading book yet from India on the topic). They will all extend the subject of Management Accounting beginning from Cost Accounting. Till date, for the last two decades at least there has not been a single event in ICAI like the way they focus on IFRS and Audit on management accounting nor any leading literature. For all the draft exposures of IFAC on management accounting there are no responses from ICAI. Whereas all the global CMA bodies came to Delhi in 2008 on a Global Management Accounting Summit hosted by ICWAI with Kaplan as a lead speaker. It is but natural that since ICWAI is creating the ambience and the momentum for Management Accounting to grow in this country, as a professional with credibility in this field , I look upon ICWAI for my national contribution.  

For your kind information, the financial reporting will be merging with Integrated Reporting to stakeholders in another 5 years. That is going to be the development. Management Accounting and Technical Information will be the pillars along with Financial Accounting for Integrated Reprting. Whether peaceful or not, coexistence will be forced down the throat of accountants in the days to come.

The Governments in this region of South Asia have several policy interventions in public interest where they work closely with the accounting bodies. Sometimes it delegates powers and times it takes it away. For example in UK, ICAEW is just an accounting eductaion provider . So is CIMA. All standard setting processes on accounting and auditing are managed by FRC including disciplining. FRC has authorised many professional accounting bodies to audit and cerify financial accounts and CIMA by its strategy has not preferred to be an auditor but they are preparers. We need not forget this. CIMA specialises in management accounting and its academic content is structured like that. CMA Canada on the other hand has opted for its members to enter public practice and they are licensed to do audits like CA canada. However they are subject to Provincial accounting and audit regulations.

In India, Government had almost provided the accounting standards setting power later thru NACAS to ICAI which will now be taken away to FRA proposed under Companies Act.  Cost accounting information which was used for policy intervention the Government had mandated through ICWAI as two instututes were formed by Parliament with a specific purpose. These sort of Government mandating accounting bodies have been well documented in the IFAC publication on establishing professional accountancy organisations. The same IFAC document says that accounting title can be put into constitution by Governments to secure the title for its own citizens who are accounting professionals. This is different from mandating an area of practice for public policy intervention. By not allowing the management accounting title for Indian institute the Government exposes it to unwanted competition from similar bodies.

Without contributing anything to the advancement of management accounting content in the last two decades, ICAI should not stop another body which wants to specialise and secure a national title for the Indian Cost and Management Accountants. Instead, if it wants that to be a common area it could have asked for a change in its name to Institute of  Chartered and Management Accountants of India. Instead of two ICAI we could have had two ICMAI.

Some postings which you will find referring my name are from people whom I do not even know. It is just an appreciation of the role I have played in CMA in India and globally. If you regard the field by involving in it  and not indulging in simple rhetoric you will not fault them. As a sample of the role I have played please see the comment below of the President of a CA institute of a SAFA member body received today :

My dear friend RAMAN

,First let me thank you for all the hard work and initiatives done by you during the last year as the president of the SAFA. In fact we all felt that there had been an association called SAFA especially because of your leadership.When I met you some years ago I realized about your talents and your passion over the development of the profession . I am indeed honor to have been able to work under your leadership and I especially thank you for the initiatives you took to have a more close interaction with SAARC.I am confident our incoming President Rafi and his deputy will be able to continue the good work initiated by the SAFA and I am sure that the incoming president has a great challenge to work at the same capacity or if not more of RAMAN. May I take this opportunity to wish you all the very best for all your future endeavors and also wish you and the family a VERY HAPPY AND PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR 2012.Regds,

After this reply post, I will carry on my discussion with you only after I am convinced that you have a rich background in cost and management accounting lending credibility and revealing your insights in the development of the field for national interest. 

A.N.Raman

Speaking to Chartered Accountants and their views on Cost and Management Accounting is like having conversation with an atheist on god. Chartered Accountants always make noise on Cost Audit deeming it to be unnecessary - but if given an opportunity to be exclusive cost auditors - they may lobby for cost audit in service sector also - It isnt ideology that drives them as much, but pocket consciousness. Their numbers have increased so prolifically since past couple of decades owing to cheap syllabii and liberal examining that the Financial Audit and Accounting Business is not enough and dog fights are not uncommon amongst them. I am inclined to say that mere struggle for survival and making money are their primary objectives, not intellectualism and professionalism.

They system of articleship is an assult on individual freedom in the name of training - training needs to be uniform - take for example training given by banks/various depts. to officers of the same cadre, A CA artilced clerk working for a village Chartered Accountant may not have the same level of training some one from E&Y.

The requirement for cheap labour is the motive behind Articleship training - nothing else and these days it has become additional source of revenue to sell the articled trainee post for someone who has resource to buy ' the dummy' training and become an "ACA". In short, Articleship is another remenant of bygone British Raj., to which we have infamously clung on to. why doenst AICPA have such kind of training????

Mr. Raman.

Wishing very happy new year 2012 , to all of you

Till date my own observations on the accounting profession is that ,

Accounting profession has been recogniged by ICAI in India ( Whether by manipulation or monopolym please you decide)

I also went through varuois informations and records regarding this profession, what impostant things , i observed that , Accounting profession has not gainded its full professioanl statuure like Medical or Engineering.

Findings,

No parliament in the world can change Designation " Doctor " If a person is  qualified MBBS degree.

But Accountant's name or say identity can be diceied by Parliament or GOVT , Currenlty , ICWAI has been changed.

I think  almost 70% inidains may not undersatnd what is CA or CPA or your dream designation CMA.On the other hand , most of indian do understand doctors aor egnigeers. So it may said that accountants are profesion by mere lawa or statute.

This is not comparision , but a studies on a profession .

May be you can say accounting is not independent body of knowledge. you may be right.

Inspeite of being above mentioned anomolor weakness in accounting profesions, here in India Students like CA mostly , what ever may be reasons , your team claim it is misconception that CA has been made such popular.  Thay may  be right.

ICWAI deamnds its indepentents statute as cost and management acconting body, It may be rigth or wrong , You are to decide . But I think development of management Accounting without participation of ICAI will be resulting in demerger of  indian accounting profesion  . You are trying to follow global practices for management accounting. In the future , you will cry for consilidation of accointing bodies for failure inthe quality of indian accountants.Because

On the contrary , i found western countries have inclined to merge all multu layer accounting bodies for sake of harmonies.

SO demering of accounting profesion will ultimaelty lead to consolidation in future. This transit time will lead quality of indian accounting profesion lead  to no whare.

Even now days quality of ca is not at par with yoru time. Further , competion ( as your collugue claim there should be not monopoly , personlly i dont feel these accounting bodies are bussiness entities , Hence , it is not matter of  compertion , but ther should be  strict adherence to profesional ethics.)

Conclusion , Just remember , if all concerned satke holders in accounting profesion  incluiding  you are going  for dermerger and futher consolidation, There will be  a day in your life you , you regret on the  condition of accountants.The situations of CA or CWa r oCMA or will be same as normal graduates wandering in the markets for jobs.  That time , you simply remember me " Raj Kumar Gupat"

I fought on this platform  for the sake of accounting profesion , Personally i lost alot of enrgy and time.

May be i  am wrong ro rigth . But i thought to spare time for this profesion,.

 I am young to persue some diffrent profession, where there will not  be identity crisis , and my fate of profesioan will be decided by my personal Hard work , determination and dedication.

Request all of you , i am really very sorry for some personal quererling or attcackes , but it was puerly on action and reactions basis , no things intentionally .

Once again wishing very happy new year , This is my last post on this forum , please no body make any repleis to this post.

I have alrady spent much time on this for no thins. I also belive work is worship. 

To reach the level of recognition like an engineer / doctor or civil servant on mass basis., accounting profession must move towars homogenisation and mutual recognition. ICAI should be in a position to accept the inevitability of rising importance of Cost and Management Accounting and Company Secretaryship and all the three Institutes participate prodcutively in the development of National Accounting Collegium contributing to research and development in the three spheres which they are dealing with. A Road map for development of accounting profession was never in place with all the three Institutes never reaching consensus on key issues and becoming roadblocks for profession, instead.