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SAMIR KUMAR (CA FINAL(GR. I CLEARED) CFA (IND))   (521 Points)
Replied 02 February 2013

I THINK RATHER THAN CONTROLLING THE RESULTS, ICAI SHOULD CONCENTRATE ON QUALITY OF CURRICULUM.

IT SHOULD EMPHASIZE ON PRESENTATION AND COMMUNICATION SKILLS OF STUDENTS SO THAT WE CAN BEAT IIMs.

STILL TOTAL NO OF QUALIFIED CAs EVERY YR IS MUCH LOWER THAN QUALIFIED MBAs OF ALL IIMs TAKEN TOGETHER.

IS THEY REALLY HAVE MUCH SUBJECTIVE KNOWLEDGE THAN US?

BUT THEY ARE GETTING GOOD JOBS. THE REASON BEING THEIR PRESENTATION SKILLS.

ICAI SHOULD TRY TO CULTIVATE THAT THING TOO IN US.

AS PER MY OPINION BREAK UP OF OUR ARTICLESHIP SHOULD BE AS FOLLOWS -

 

1.5 YRS OF INITIAL  ARTICLESHIP WITH A PRACTICING CA.

3 MONTHS OF COMPULSORY PRACTICAL COMPUTER TRAINING WITH A COMPULSORY PAPER OF 100 MARKS (PRACTICAL) TO BE INCLUDED IN THE MAIN EXAM.

3 MONTS OF COMPULSORY GMCS PROGRAMME.

FINALLY, 1 YR OF COMPULSORY INDUSTRIAL TRAINING( NOT OPTIONAL LIKE PRESENT ONE).

 

I THINK THIS WILL ENHANCE OUR PRACTICAL KNOWLEDGE AND EQUIP OURSELVES TO STAND IN THIS FIERCE COMPETITION .

2 Like


CA in practice (CA,CS,CWA ) (110 Points)
Replied 02 February 2013

They are hell bent on decreasing the value of CA as a profession

1 Like

vignesh (steps towards my goals) (381 Points)
Replied 03 February 2013

You see here how CAs are passing in every attempt in an average

 

Don't see % age ........see no of CAs are increased year by year ...........ok as far as no of students are increased.......good coaching ...........other cpa institute 40-50 %..................but .it is dangerous to job market if no of ca increased by this trend..............................

 

New CA s in a year  avg 15,000 in 2012 like this many more past ( i.e 20,000 to 21,000 in last 3 attempts )

 

Trends of CA final in last 4 attempts AS an average

 

 

Nov 12 -   single group passed (avg )=  13,193+11341/2  = 12,267 +   both groups passed  = 3,804 = totally                   16071 NEW CAs

 

 

May  12 -   single group passed (avg )=  12,912+16325/2  = 14618  +   both groups passed  = 5075 = totally  19693 NEW CAs

 

 

Nov 11 -   single group passed (avg )=  12590+15905/2  = 14247 +   both groups passed  = 5003 = totally 19250 NEW CAs

 

 

May 11 -   single group passed (avg )=  17641+14338/2  = 15989 +   both groups passed  = 6649 = totally 22638 NEW CAs

 

 

 

Trends of CA final in (may 03 to Nov 04 ) 4 attempts AS an average

 

 

Nov 04 -   single group passed (avg )=  4089+4484/2  = 4286 +   both groups passed  = 939      = totally    5225  NEW CAs

 

 

May  04 -   single group passed (avg )=  7011+3354/2  = 5182.5  +   both groups passed  = 1490 = totally    6672  NEW CAs

 

 

Nov 03 -   single group passed (avg )=  4450+4381/2  = 4415 +   both groups passed  = 1076 = totally       5491  NEW CAs

 

 

May 03 -   single group passed (avg )=  4469+2203/2  = 3336  +   both groups passed  =802 = totally        4138  NEW CAs

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                            


Attached File : 269856 1126924 234797 54011 ca final results analysis may 2003 nov 2012.pdf downloaded: 90 times

Budding Professional (B.Com, CA & CS FINAL) (1686 Points)
Replied 03 February 2013

(No personal offending intended), but I just couldn't understand whether it is inevitable or just a matter of time for a few qualified members to speak ill of the prosperity the membership base of the Institute is enjoying.. What amuses me even more is the fact that the same members used to come scathingly at the Institute when the pass percentages used to be quite low or the same were so "manipulated". And when the pass percentages are good (its good only in the context of CA, in general parlance it is still quite low), Institute gets the same treatment in terms of response to the pass percentages. Having said that, Mr. Ayush is among the senior and the pragmatic members of the club and advocating the controlling of results or ruing (as it appeared) that the same is not happening is just not expected of him.

 

If the pass percentages are on a upside, its not because that the ICAI has started to offer freebies and they are awarding student two mark instead of one or is so "not manipulating" the results. Rather, it is because of the fact that the students have improvised significantly, they have more resources at their disposal, they are more clinical in their preparations and they are continuously evolving more methodical in the manner they appear for the exams and presenting their answers. And what it has done is that it has reduced the incentive for the examiner to cut marks citing "unprofessional answers and presentation" and therefore resulting in more marks being awarded. And I strongly feel that in the coming years, we will witness even higher pass percentages. But of course, few grey areas remain as highlighted earlier, like the competence of the persons evaluating the answer sheets and the students skipping articleship to cram and get thru the qualifying margin (exceptions do prevail).

 

It has quite become a norm citing "Supply being more than Demand" as a reason for the unemployment or underemployment of CAs. Somewhere in 2011, I read that there is shortage of around 2,00,000 CAs in the country. And since then, I don't think more than 25,000 CAs have qualified. So, by that standard, still CAs are in short supply. Campus placements are making new lows every time, but would it be fair to say that the demand is lesser then supply? Companies incur about half million (I may be wrong) towards participation fees in Campus Placements, but are the companies so foolish to incur such heavy expenses to hire only 8-10 of the 100 candidates. If they really didn't had the need for CAs, then they would have easily hired them from off campus, why is the need to pay such heavy entrance fees to recruit candidates. Doesn't it somewhere highlights the issue of Skill Deficiency? Doesn't it somewhere shows that the members are not able to justify themselves to the realms of the corporate world? Isn't the weakening economy and global prospects one of the reasons for the lack of opportunities available? Quite clearly, there are a lot of factors that we tend to overshadow under the "Demand-Supply Theory". And why we talk of salary as the first criterion of evaluating how good the job or the prospect is? Though, it is quite important, but that is not the sole determinant. That being said, not all the CAs are "unemployed", a few of them are "not working" and we need to understand this.

 

And it is sort of unfair to compare the salary of the IIM graduates with that of ours. Reason being, that the roles are quite different and the same are not comparable. If we also expand ourselves in management roles, even we can carry the kind of fat wallets as do the IIM graduates do.

 

The present may look a bit bleak, but I strongly feel and sincerely hope that as the economy expands, opportunities will blossom and the new members will be welcomed with open hands and hearts.

 

1 Like

Sathish M (Management Accountant) (40581 Points)
Replied 03 February 2013

 

People staying in Glass Houses, should not throw stones at others. It is intriguing to find strong arguments in favor and against the current trend of increased number of CA's. It is high time for all stakeholders to introspect and take an upright decision in the interest of the CA profession.

 

I urge some of the members not to create a false alarm about the profession; we all agree that the system is somewhere failing to take course correction to have proper checks and balances. I concur with some of the perspectives expressed by members, the CA Module requires reinvigorated approach to factor in with current realities and gear up each and everyone involved in helping and supporting one and another.

 

Members should rather encourage budding CA's by instilling confidence in them and provide them proper guidance and advice rather than making rhetorical statements. A student of today is a CA tomorrow, so the question to a member is what is his or her contribution in giving proper career counseling to many aspiring student? People who are on the other side of the fence always think the Pasteur is greener at their end.

 

It is easy to pass buck on others, a member in practice or service needs to reflect on himself to ask a question as to - What steps he or she has taken in molding an articled trainee or a team member in his or her organization to impart the skill and experience? Kindly excuse me; I am not painting everyone with the same brush. There are real role models who have and who are still upholding the values of this profession.

Students need to fine-tune their approach to this profession and equip themselves to face the challenges of tomorrow. Do not get perturbed and deterred by truths and realities of the world. In today’s competitive world Darwin's theory of - "Survival of the Fittest" has become more relevant. No point in blaming about the system, one needs to accept the reality and come out successful against all odds.

 

We all must understand that every system has its own flavors and flaws, but the Institute should take note of the pitfalls and act in a fair and pragmatic manner. In addition, the Institute needs to wake up and address the concern of all stakeholders. 

1 Like



CMA. Rakesh Kataria (Practising Cost Accountant)   (531 Points)
Replied 03 February 2013

All three Institutes (ICAI. ICSI, ICAI-CMA) should not control result based on demand supply rule. Result should be based on performance of the students. If students are performing well then no need to stop them to becoming CA’s, CS’s and CMA’s. 

Also, we need to brand our professions at international level. CPA USA and CIMA UK is most demanding professionals all over the world. We need to change attitude of MNC’s and brand our professionals CA’s and CMA’s.  Our professions are mostly based on statutory recognition and without government support we are nothing. We need to change this attitude. We need fresh air in the professions that will develop accounting and tax systems for future needs to the country and industry.

I welcome new entrants in the accounting professions and hope they will utilise energy for developing our professions.

 

 


Chirag Ramesh Shah (trainee research analyst)   (27 Points)
Replied 03 February 2013

I belive that if ICAI regulates results depending on demand supply factors then its playing the role of RBI and trying to control inflation by its monetary policy. In actual sence monetary policy purpose is to balance the liquidity situation in the economy and not the overall demand-supply mismatch, which is a structural issue and can seldom be corrected by monetary measures, though it shows immediate impact, fails to have long term effect. ICAI's purpose is to produce industry ready professionals and controling the results is a grave injustice to not only the students but also the economy at large. Failing a candidate can not only break his confidence but may also prevent him of a better future. Results should strictly be on merit and not on demand supply situation as the deserving and a qualified person can make his living even in tight market conditions, but if you as ICAI break his confidence by controling results what chance does he have to earn a living with a broken confidence and without the C.A. qualification ?

CA Anushree jain (CA) (1531 Points)
Replied 03 February 2013

seriously this is senseless to speak about controlling number of and stuff

please understand that this unemployement is just temporary India need more educated people

incresed number is not at all an issue of worry there are alot many fields which are untill untouched we just need to be innovtive

by manipulating result it will be complete injustice to india's bright future

and mr.ayush what if icai would have manipulated result at your time 4 times...

think about it

3 Like

KRISHNA (CA-STUDENT) (371 Points)
Replied 03 February 2013

From 1949 to 2009 i.e in 60 Yrs No of members with Icai 1,70,000 approx (including those who have died)

From-2009 to 2012 lies the rest ie 35,564 .which is 20.92% increase in 3 Yrs.

It was only during this period ICAI has entered into many foreign Body MOU's.

It was an indirect indication 1) to new members coming out from 09-12, and onwads to take advantage of MOUS, Phd prog , ,etccc....  2) this indirect indication also projects the increasing members strength.

ICAI has made many oppurtunuities available to Members in the form of MOU with foreign bodies, Phd Prog, CS,CMA,CPA,Dip in IFRS etc.... Members should take advantage of them instead fighting on restricting the results.

It is these members who r unable to take advantage of market oppurtunities. Being a member it is shame on their part talking on restricting results.

See CA is not the end. It is Very few who come to the course thinking CA is last resort..

Even it was these members who r students at one point of time, If the same restriction on result was discussed by their seniors(i.e members who r qualified when they r students) the what would you do?

See friends one should understand that TIME is available to every one, BUT WHAT'S MOST IMPORTANT IS TIMING.

 

 

1 Like


(Guest)

The same stunning statistics were said my Mr V Pattabhi Ram (Author of famous SFM book) in his recent programme about career choices. The membership has increased in these years i.e. from 2009 to present. But we must also appreciate the fact that the course has enjoyed enormous popularity and many students joined the course since the introduction of CPT. Also, the quality of coaching, studies have increased.

I don't know what Mr Ayush meant by controlling the results as per the demand. If the existing membership is enough, then what is the need of controlling the results, instead the institute might have opted not to conduct any examinations for 2 to 3 years. If you suggest to control the results, then many deserving candidates will continously fail in examinations despite giving a good performance, which is unfair. Remember, many students who join CA come from very poor background who can't join other courses by payig huge fees. This is the only course where there is no reservation, capitation fee etc. unlike in the case of medicine or engineering. Also this is a rewarding course once you complete it. Although I agree, there is underemployment/unemployment prevalent now, but it doesn't mean that ICAI should reduce the results.

To be very honest, I really don't know how the selection process is done in the job market in some cases. I know some of them, who did dummy articleship and cleared examinations in 2 or 3 attempts got the job (I still wonder how?). Conversely, in some cases person with good knowledge, communication skills and academic record are underemployed. As of today, the job market is also mixed like this, the company also cuts the price (salary) offered to CAs, but it doesn't mean that it should result in cutting the results. May be in first time employment some may be underemployed but I believe that CAs can reach higher positions as their career progresses.

As a senior member in CAclubindia, if at all Mr Ayush should suggest something, he must suggest the way in which we can overcome this problem, by increasing the quality or exploring new opportunities. ICAI is also making its efforts to increase the quality of the course. Recently I read in an article that there is a proposal to bring compulsory SAP training to CA students in ITT. This is one area where other professionals gain a competitive edge over CAs. Everyone can't afford to learn SAP, hence we must appreciate such initiatives. Also, I believe that if IFRS convergance takes place, then the scope will be increased. I would also recommend the friends here to do some International Certification along with CA like CISA (which is affordable one and has value). Mr V Pattabhi Ram also recommended the same in his career counselling.

Finally I say that, continous improvement and positive thinking will always land you in success (more importantly it will give the courage to face some interim failures and bounce back strongly). Se let us not discuss about cutting the results, or chopping the membership strength. It is the duty of ICAI and examination committe to release the results based on candidate's performance. We shall go towards improvement in whatever we do with positive thinking.

Regards

K Sathish

2 Like



Shreyans Tejpal Shah (Partner) (40 Points)
Replied 03 February 2013

I think increasing numbers of CAs may result in to more competition and lesser professional opportunities to members. But think, Govt. had practically threatened Institute regarding if India is falling short CAs against demand, they may authorise other professionals to do our job. This may result into bigger losses.


(Guest)
I don't think there will be lesser professional opportunities. Consider the drastic changes made in service tax laws, 108 amendments made in direct tax laws by last finance act and the future changes like GST, DTC, IFRS etc. If there is one profession which can update themselves to all these changes it is CA. So there is no question of giving our areas of expertise to other professionals like CMAs, whose scope is management consulting and CSs, who are specialised in secretarial practice. I can give a classic example, during 2000 to 2002 nearly 13 new accounting standards were issued, and

CA AYUSH AGRAWAL (Kolkata-Pune-Mumbai) (26986 Points)
Replied 04 February 2013

Dear All Participants

 

Nice Reply by @ CA Club Member.

Please Understand, The Discussion Gone in The Wrong Way Other Than For What I Started, You Think That Controll Result means Passing Any One and Failing Any One....

No....Completely No...

Suppose They Estimate That 2000 in Demand Then They Take Super 2000 Students as Being a CA.

Not Playing Random Basis as You People are understanding.

and This Happens in Competitive Exams Like Civil Examinations, IIT Entrance.

Now Pls Stop Blaming and Figting With Words.

I am Sorry If Some One Hurts Due to My Any Words.

 

REgards,

CA Ayush Agrawal

 

2 Like

anand (trainee) (67 Points)
Replied 04 February 2013

completely agreed with ca ayush agarwal

1 Like



CA HIMANSHU (ARTICLE) (317 Points)
Replied 04 February 2013

sir i respect ur views but why dont  u all member complain abt cpt results ,,,,,sir if u look at cfa exams or international exams startng exams are tough and then it goes on increasng the % passng 

but our institute wann more registration followed by huge amount of registration fees and exam fees\

,,,,,,

pls dont play with lives of students,,,,,,,,

 



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